Comments about TE4 Early Version

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Re: Comments about TE4 Early Version

Postby teamthiem » 29 Oct 2021, 22:01

The early version is unplayable for me because of the camera angle. Too bad I upgraded the macOS and can no longer play TE2013.

Can't tell where the ball is landing, and just hitting 20+ errors per set. Always out of position.
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Re: Comments about TE4 Early Version

Postby manutoo » 30 Oct 2021, 11:05

Zugzwang,
could you show me video and/or send me .dmo when there's an animation you're not happy with ?

teamthiem,
eventually, I'll likely add the option to change the angle for the court camera, but if you do tons of errors, it's unlikely the reason : most TE2013 people switching to TE4 have a hard time for a few hours at 1st.
Play with average auto-pos (or even fast one) and Simulation controls (or even Arcade ones), as well as the Danger Zone & the Aiming preview, till you're comfortable with the new gameplay, hopefully it'll help ! :yes:
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Re: Comments about TE4 Early Version

Postby Mystery » 30 Oct 2021, 21:36

Regarding animations, I kinda agree with the comments above. Despite you previously mentioned that you used the exact same ones from TE 2013 plus a few extra, the new engine you use for TE 4 might not be displaying them as naturally as on TE 2013. Yes, we've seen a lot of improvements over the last couple of months, but still much work to do for sure.

Two things I've heard from almost all players I've talked to so far:
1) movement feels like players are holding their s...
2) animations -- I can try giving some examples here.
a. When you try to do an accel shot, your player would have a quick turn of the body right after you hit the ball, which doesn't happen on TE 2013 and looks a bit off.
b. Some slice animations look kinda odd, especially when you try to slice a low ball back (that involves knee bending).
c. When you try to hit a ball that's a bit far from your body... POLAND has a video here that might help explain this better - check out the forehand at around 3:14 https://youtu.be/xfeAa8cRhdQ

Hope that gives you a better idea of what to improve!
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Re: Comments about TE4 Early Version

Postby noname1988 » 30 Oct 2021, 23:40

Mystery wrote:Regarding animations, I kinda agree with the comments above. Despite you previously mentioned that you used the exact same ones from TE 2013 plus a few extra, the new engine you use for TE 4 might not be displaying them as naturally as on TE 2013. Yes, we've seen a lot of improvements over the last couple of months, but still much work to do for sure.


This is what I wrote about once. It is for this reason that I prefer switch to "meshlod -1" and turn on old models. I got the impression that the animation works better on them.

From other considerations, I miss the choice of animatinion of player's stance position when he is not moving. In the mods for TE2013, some players had their own (it was probably assigned to the forehand style(?)) It added variety to the view of the court and the visual impressions. .
stance.jpg
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Re: Comments about TE4 Early Version

Postby Spallo » 06 Nov 2021, 03:10

Hey Manu and the community,

finally bought the EA-Version of TE4. Was kinda busy in my life, but now my third kid is on the way to kindergarden (fourth underway :whistle: ) and I have a bit of time to play around with this.

First thoughts:

1. Vast graphic improvement over TE2013. I dont see why somebody would now bother with this. Absolutly astonishing visuals compared to TE2013.

2. I disagree with the critics on the animations. Yeah, seems sometimes a bit off, but overall there are big improvements on this side too. Seems much more realistic to me, because more netshots, near misses on the rag and so on ...

3. Balance seems strange though. Lobs are still to effective (in my view). I like that you can dominate much more than in TE2013 - but I never played above Pro 10 and maybe never will be (cause kids and stuff). Overall the AI seems much more dependent on their actual skills. This is a good and a bad thing in my view, because it deepens the gap between you being good and they being bad. That forces you, eventually, to raise the difficulty to a level, which is not sustainable against good players. But I assume the will be worked out ...

4. Junior Tour is just awesome :applause:

5. Precision ist much better than in TE2013. Didnt need hours to get in, although I didnt played TE2013 for months. It is much more intuitive. So I guess new players will have quite an easier experience!

Questions (dont know, if it is the right place):

1. Because I never played TEM2 or TEM, I could need some explanations on Stress, short term form (form of day?) and so on ... core concepts so to say. Is there a wiki somewhere for this?

2. I know the dev-blog and the planned features-thread, but still ... are there any plans to implement buying equipment, training of some sorts and such stuff? Didnt found anything in this regard ...


I am absolutly pumped for the next week with this and I still dont believe, that you delivered such a more polished, realistic and accurate experience of our loved game :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Love and strength for the work lying ahead of you Manu :wink:
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Re: Comments about TE4 Early Version

Postby manutoo » 12 Nov 2021, 10:49

Mystery,
1) Movement animations are very similar, so maybe it's the fact that the player models are more detailed now and it creates a discrepancy of quality with the animation (ie: the animation is not natural enough, but on the legacy TE2013 model it's less shocking coz the models are tankier :blackeye: )

2) a) b) I did a quick test and couldn't reproduce the issue ; a Bug Report would be helpful there

c) I can't see the issue with the 3:14 FH , except the racket goes into the arm at the end, but I guess it's not what's wrong for you... :fear:

3) Anyway, I think the probable biggest issue here is the one pointed out by noname1988 : the animations have been created for the legacy TE2013 player bone structure, and their automatic adaptation to the new TE4 bone structure is far from optimal, and can get quite bad.

Last month, I started to see if I could adapt the 2H-BH #1 which is one of the worst looking on the new bone structure ; unfortunately, I got some personal issues then I got sick, so I still didn't finish it... We'll know more when I'll be able to get back to it... :blackeye:


Spallo,
I'm glad to know you enjoy the game & thanks for your feedback ! :jap:

1) For now, you'll find everything in the TEM2 doc here : https://www.managames.com/tennismanager ... _Game.html ; there's no explanation for the stress, the player just plays a bit less well when he's stressed.

2) Not really, but I'd like to offer the management part of TEM2 in TE4 for the people who will have bought both games, though
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Re: Comments about TE4 Early Version

Postby Mystery » 14 Nov 2021, 19:35

manutoo wrote:Mystery,
1) Movement animations are very similar, so maybe it's the fact that the player models are more detailed now and it creates a discrepancy of quality with the animation (ie: the animation is not natural enough, but on the legacy TE2013 model it's less shocking coz the models are tankier :blackeye: )

2) a) b) I did a quick test and couldn't reproduce the issue ; a Bug Report would be helpful there

c) I can't see the issue with the 3:14 FH , except the racket goes into the arm at the end, but I guess it's not what's wrong for you... :fear:

3) Anyway, I think the probable biggest issue here is the one pointed out by noname1988 : the animations have been created for the legacy TE2013 player bone structure, and their automatic adaptation to the new TE4 bone structure is far from optimal, and can get quite bad.

Last month, I started to see if I could adapt the 2H-BH #1 which is one of the worst looking on the new bone structure ; unfortunately, I got some personal issues then I got sick, so I still didn't finish it... We'll know more when I'll be able to get back to it... :blackeye:


1) Yes, I agree with both you and noname1988 on this. We definitely need some tuning to make sure it looks more natural - both movement and animation.
2-a) I suspect this issue is due to 1) mentioned above. I just feel like my player is jumping as I try to do accels.
2-b) Here is a video specifically for the slice shot example I was referring to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bywEJkKE-As&ab_channel=Mystery Check out Alcaraz's slice at 18'54. His body is curved in a weird way after the shot. There is a screenshot here.
1636910328470.jpg

I also have another example that is similar but more obvious despite it's not a "slice shot" example. When you try to defend on full stretch, the animation looks as if the player is cramping. You can watch the same video from 7'41-7'43 in slow motion (I'm the one on the opposite side of the court).
1-1.jpg
1-2.jpg
1-3.jpg
1-4.jpg


2-c) I have another example from the video above. It's the fh from Alcaraz at 18'01. The animation looks as if he is about to serve...
1636910184655.jpg


Sorry to hear that you've been sick. Great to hear you are feeling better. Wish you speedy recovery.
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Re: Comments about TE4 Early Version

Postby manutoo » 15 Nov 2021, 12:25

Mystery,
on your 3 examples, there are 3 obvious issues that I guess I may be able to fix if you send me the .Dmo (or send me a Bug Report while watching that match), if it was recorded with the latest Build of the game (Build 65). :yes:
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Re: Comments about TE4 Early Version

Postby Mystery » 15 Nov 2021, 17:34

manutoo wrote:Mystery,
on your 3 examples, there are 3 obvious issues that I guess I may be able to fix if you send me the .Dmo (or send me a Bug Report while watching that match), if it was recorded with the latest Build of the game (Build 65). :yes:


Cool. Just emailed it to you.
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Re: Comments about TE4 Early Version

Postby noname1988 » 15 Nov 2021, 21:49

Compare how animations work on both models.

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Re: Comments about TE4 Early Version

Postby freehand » 18 Nov 2021, 11:12

I was always looking for this camera's angle of view in te2013.
It's great if it'll be available in te4 without mods.
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Re: Comments about TE4 Early Version

Postby Guest » 27 Nov 2021, 03:18

Hello

After the latest patch, whilst the tiredness stays off for the player if you turn it off in the character sheet, it also turns off for all opponents too. You might have intended it to be this way but I thought I'd check because it wasn't like this with 2013. You could have tiredness de-activated for the player but active for all opponents automatically.
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Re: Comments about TE4 Early Version

Postby manutoo » 27 Nov 2021, 08:56

freehand,
AFAIR, this is a camera from the game ; noname1988 asked me to extend a couple of values in the menu to reach that state... :)

Guest,
I just checked and in TE2013, there's no Tiredness icon for our opponent, so his state always matches ours. Or I missed something..? :fear:
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Re: Comments about TE4 Early Version

Postby Guest » 28 Nov 2021, 15:54

manutoo wrote:freehand,
AFAIR, this is a camera from the game ; noname1988 asked me to extend a couple of values in the menu to reach that state... :)

Guest,
I just checked and in TE2013, there's no Tiredness icon for our opponent, so his state always matches ours. Or I missed something..? :fear:


That's my bad, I misremembered :roll:

Would it be possible to have turning player tiredness off in the character sheet not turn off opponent tiredness as well?

pre-patch, I had to turn off player tiredness before every match.

post-patch, I have to turn on opponent tiredness before every match.

So, there's still an issue for me. But I appreciate that not everyone would want to have tiredness be different between the two players, so I understand why you might want to leave it as it is :yes:
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Re: Comments about TE4 Early Version

Postby noname1988 » 28 Nov 2021, 22:01

manutoo wrote:freehand,
AFAIR, this is a camera from the game


Yes and no ;)
Because such a camera view cannot be achieved from the game settings. Its nessesary change value customcourt 1 and set manually dist and height to get this.

On the screen above:

Dist = 13095
Height = 4050

so this is some kind of "mod" i think. However, it would be great if it could be done from the menu.

And while we're on the subject of the camera angle...I've been thinking a lot lately about it from a marketing point of view, it would be good to think about a well-chosen, default camera that the client sees after launching the game 1st time. The first impression is very important and I think (subjectively) that a much better view can be achieved here, reflect the expression and beauty of this game even more.
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