Mana Games

[iTzDony_]

ADD TWEENER please! So there will be no comparison with top spin 4

[filipos6]

For me, another problem is, when you hit the ball hard at your opponent, they slice it instead of hitting a normal shot and when you return a high ball (not sky high), AI move away from ball and slice it or hit a normal shot, whereas they should smash the ball or hit it really hard.

[cangqilai]

I have some suggestions, hope it's not too late

1. Add initial position of both serving and receiving as attributes of a player. In TE2013, all players share the same default position. Human players can adjust themselves, but CPU players can't. Initial position changes a lot of things, for example, chance of approaching the net when receiving.

2. Add more "random choices" for CPU players. I now use incredible 1 as my normal difficulty, and in some specific cases they are completely predictable. For instance, when CPU players are forced to save the ball outside one side of the court, they will then definitely run to the other side immediately, which means the only choice for me to do a winner is a bodyline ball, because CPU's running speed is really incredible on high difficulty, which helps them reach the other side in no time, but also makes them hard to stop and turn back. So I think it would make more fun to let CPU players "take some risk" when they need to, like in this case, they would sometimes bet on the nearer side.

3. Give CPU players some delay, or say "reaction time". Maybe they already have some, but still not enough. On high difficulty, Serving has been too insignificant. CPU player usually do more Return Aces than Serving Aces in a game, because even if I serve the ball to the corner at highest speed (over 220 km/h), CPU still can do a perfect and super aggressive return, which is almost impossible to save. So a funny result of this is, I often get a higher pts won on 2nd serve than on 1st, because a slower 2nd serve gives me more time to back off... Another possible solution for this is to add more punishment when a player is trying to return a super high-speed ball (like over 200 km/h, only serving can do) with acceleration.

That's what I can think of now, I'll add some if I remember some more.

[manutoo]

cangqilai,
topic is still open...

Getting more realistic return rules is one of my big objectives for TE4.

Your other notes are good.

[percy896]

Hi Manu! Hope all is well

I definitely have some thoughts about AI moving forward. Some of these things I've mentioned over the years, so sorry if it's redundant!

Adding 2 more play styles is a fine idea, but I suggest something different. The biggest strength and draw of Tennis Elbow is the customization. It's always been amazing and people buy the game for its cutting-edge flexibility. I think allowing the AI to be more customized will help Tennis Elbow shine even further. Instead of a more pre-set style, allow us to edit certain AI qualities in the .ini files.

Here are some examples:

1) Aggression level. This number would determine how risky the AI plays. A value of 15 would mean they rarely go for the lines and play more conservative balls. A value of 90 would mean that they are extremely risky and often go for winners even in difficult positions, which could result in an error or a brilliant shot. Currently there is no way to change this reliably, and trust me, I've tried over the years . This would be incredible to have and would allow us to customize not only real-world players, but our own created players. It would make the game much more lifelike. If we could only have one new change to AI, I think this should be it. Many people would really really really love this feature!

2) Surface Movement. This would allow for a real-time bonus or handicap for AI on certain surfaces for movement. For example, some players are excellent at moving on clay, regardless of their play style, and this is what would give realism to certain players. For example, someone like Maria Sharapova, who does not have a game that in Tennis Elbow would be suited to clay, can move extremely well on the surface. In Tennis Elbow, only game style and topspin amounts really affect whether a player is strong on a surface. This would add a huge amount of realism with what I think would be simple programming: AI gets a bonus or malus to their "Speed" on a certain surface, that we can define in .ini. Imagine how much more realistic this would make the game!

These first two are definitely my biggest suggestions and more important than these moving forward, but I will list them anyway.

3) Playing Frequency. This value in the .ini file would determine how often the AI plays in tournaments. For example, Roger Federer would have a lower rating because he is more choosy about his events, where as someone like Dominic Thiem would have a high rating, therefore playing more tournaments during the year. Would add realism.

4) In-game mental strength. This could be directly related to the current mental skills, but having them affect the AI in actual matches would be amazing. For example, add some stress when they are serving for the match, or when they are in a tie-break, or down break-point, based on their Cold Blood skill. Just a simple bonus or malus to their skills would be enough. This would be so cool and instantly make the players feel like they are real. It would be cutting edge for a tennis video game, especially considering how essential this is to the real game of tennis.

5) Net Frequency. Simple value of 0-100 on how often the player goes to net, without affecting their actual stats like the general play style does. Boom.

I know this all may require a lot of editing of the player bank, which you may find overwhelming, but there are plenty of us I'm sure, myself included, who would be happy to help out with this portion of it. If it seemed like too much work, you could allow these to me optional additions that we could add to each player. With these additions, we could basically make any type of player imaginable. It would be amazing! Please let me know if you'd like any assistance .

-Percy

[Spicer]

Interesting ideas, but it wouldn't be that realistic if those parameters were a constant defined for the whoie Tour period played.
i.e. Federer used to play of course a whole lot more tournaments when he was younger like Thiem
So those values would need to vary either as a function of time or possibly of other fluctuating parameters (Physical / Mental condition, coach styles, etc)

[Spicer]

Sorry, I completely overlooked the fact that you're talking about TE4 and not TEM2

[percy896]

Interesting ideas, but it wouldn't be that realistic if those parameters were a constant defined for the whoie Tour period played.
i.e. Federer used to play of course a whole lot more tournaments when he was younger like Thiem
So those values would need to vary either as a function of time or possibly of other fluctuating parameters (Physical / Mental condition, coach styles, etc)

That part would be just as realistic as it is now. Currently, play styles and tournament frequency are not changed year to year either, so there's no difference there. All of these additions would add a lot of realism and customizability.

If you were really wanting this to be variable per year, the value could be added to the RankPerYear line next to each rank, though for me that seems like overkill, as most players at least tend to play a lot or not very much during seasons throughout their career, consistently. Plus, there is already an option to give players time off during certain weeks/months in specific years if you wanted to make exceptions for players like Federer.

[manutoo]

percy896,
1) the "Aggression level" is actually into the style, but from your description, I guess you're thinking more about a "risk level", right ?

Till last week (ie: for TE2013), it wouldn't have made too much sense with the engine rules (and even more with the difficulty levels), but just a few days ago, I started to do some drastic changes, adding on the previous ones : now, the players can hit faster accelerations, which often leads to a winner if it lands near the line, and not if farther. Also, the best possible precision zone is quite bigger than before, and thus playing near the lines mean some errors, at least sometimes, vs never in TE2013.

So that's why I took a few days to answer, but now I think I can safely say it should be possible & even quite interesting to implement this in TEM2/TE4.

I guess I'll put some random values and let the good-willed users like yourself propose better values...

2) I think it makes a lot of sense on clay ; although on other surfaces, a lot less.
So I'll likely add it for clay, and I'll think some more about it for other ones...

3) This one can be tricky to make it work correctly (ie: to get the expected rankings at end of the year)

4) I'm planning to make the mental skills play a role in the 3D matches, although I don't have a definitive plan for it, so ideas like you wrote are welcome !

5) It could be a "risk level modifier" for the net rush, that would come to tune the style behavior, else it'd not make much sense with the other engine rules (and real tennis strategies ).

Spicer,
actually, it's about as much about TEM2 as it's about TE4, but I put the [TE4] tag coz it attracts more people...

[percy896]

percy896, [...]

Awesome! And yes, for number 1 "risk" is a better word. As for the others your responses make sense.

In terms of the movement, clay is definitely the one that makes the most sense. Though I do think there is a great variety in how well some players move on grass which affects their results. Some pros are much more comfortable on the surface with their movement. I also think though that "risk" shouldn't directly correlate with net frequency. There are many, many players who take many risks from the baseline but do not finish the point at the net. Though you probably already know this

I'm very excited! Please let me know if I can help at all.

-Percy

[noys]

Hi Mantoo,
Please take my thank for presenting such a wonderful game. This is the only game currently which closely resembles the real life tennis in terms of the gameplay.

I have some observations mainly on the net play and doubles.
1. We always find some unrealistic net ralies in doubles when all 4 players are at net. The rallies can even last as long as 70 strikes.
2. When both the opponents are at the net its impossible to hit a passing shot down the tram lines. Beating both the opponents from the baseline is quite difficult.
3. When opponent is at the net, it seem to manage a return even if a high speed shot is aimed at its body.
4. When opponent is at the net, it is unable to put away a loose shot on the first strike. instead it only puts the ball back in play.
5. When the opponent is serve and volleying, its unable to put away slow or loose returns by thumping or smashing.
6. When opponent is at the net, its unable to put away a short angle volley even when the return is high enough to do that.

Its not possible to address every issue. Even a small enhancement would make it better.

[manutoo]

noys,
thanks, these are very good points to check for me while I'll be working on the volley !

I extremely want to fix the 1) , it's one of my goals for TE4.

[obdz]

Hi

I've only played against pro, rarely did I play below or above that.

That being said, I think that the A.I. makes blunder shots, i.e. shots with no danger at all. I win a lot of short acc shots when having high spin, but the A.I. doesn't use it as much.

It doesn't make sense to play serve-volley on clay, yet A.I. seems persistent on doing so.

The A.I. does learn a lot if playing continuously, but once I close the game, all the learning is gone. Can this learning remain within the A.I. even after closing the game?

Note: Manutoo, I read somewhere a while ago that the A.I. vs A.I. needs overhaul, any updates on that?

Thank you

[manutoo]

obdz,
the CPU should tune his S&V during a match. If you start a new match, his behavior will be reset.

and the CPU vs CPU match overhaul is in progress here : viewtopic.php?p=254032#p254032 .

[manutoo]

Burned,
I answered you in french here => topic21-30282.php .