Mana Games

[Florian]

Forgot to mention that now you made the counter's shots weaker, it's just gonna be even harder to passer volleyers...especially since their volleys are mostly around 110km/h...any comment on this as well ?
And just played another set vs Stefan, there wasn't any point in which i was serving and i ve been able finish the point on the next shot (weather i was wrong footing him or not) no matter how bad his return was (and there were some bad ones). so cool...

[manutoo]

About Styles
TE styles are from the real life generic play styles, ie: the base strategy the players usually apply when they're on the court : the TE 6 styles should cover most of real life players, although it's clear that some real life players fall between 2 TE styles (especially top players), and there also are variations for each style, according to each player's set of skills.
Anyway, Djoko is not good on returns coz he's a PowerBaseliner, but coz he's just good on returns, like many other players with other styles.
The counter style is good to hit the ball early, which is the case all the times, even on return, thus the better returns he can do.

Florian,
real life smash speed is about 140-170 km/h. Even me on a real court I could likely catch a 110km/h smash if I were not afraid to take a 160km/h ball in the head...
I mean, it's not so easy to tune what it's possible to do and what is not and where is the limit in between, thus my remark about u stating the 110km/h. I will still look how to tune that better on faster smashes.

Against the volleyers, you still have the short acc that you can hit while being mispositioned within the Danger Zone ; on low ball, the strike speed is still about the same than in previous Build.

Stajus,
as a Puncher, would you trade the counter net jump against a loss of 10% of the shoulder height acc speed bonus ? (right, it's up to 15km/h and it'll be up to 20km/h in next Build)

adner is almost right about the 20km/h . For accelerations, PB top speed = 162km/h , Counter top speed = ~145km/h ; PB "smart" avrg speed = ~150km/h, Counter avr speed = ~136km/h (smart = not spamming accel all the time, but using them in the correct occasions)

[Stajus]

Stajus,
as a Puncher, would you trade the counter net jump against a loss of 10% of the shoulder height acc speed bonus ? (right, it's up to 15km/h and it'll be up to 20km/h in next Build)

adner is almost right about the 20km/h . For accelerations, PB top speed = 162km/h , Counter top speed = ~145km/h ; PB "smart" avrg speed = ~150km/h, Counter avr speed = ~136km/h (smart = not spamming accel all the time, but using them in the correct occasions)

Counter shouldn't have a bigger jump than puncher, that's just logical if you think of real tennis...Punchers are people that attack net, like Tsonga, and Djokovic this year and last year to an extent...he used to be a pure PB, now (for me) he's a puncher with 100 counter if we could compare TE to real life and he's fairly successful at the net, but as vamos rafa said it's not too meaningful to compare directly...

Hmm, adner said the difference between the last two versions is 20 kmh in counter shots (at least I understood his sentence that way with the wording he used), not the difference between PB and counter averages...and that isn't right...but nevermind...

Btw, PB "smart" accel is ~150, but counter "smart" accel is 140+ easily, not 136 When I played Flo, he hit many 142s for example...in rallies, not on "putaways"...If we look at it realistically PB average is nowhere near 150 in an average rally, its in the 140s, less than 145 for sure (if we take away b1+up passes, net rushing, short crosses, volleys etc...if we include those its even lower ). "Putaway" speed is up to 162 on those loopy no-shot balls but those shots are on points that you dominated anyways...Counter average is in the high 130s (again, take away all the special situations and assume just plain accelerations left and right), and lower 130s after I run out of accelerations...Can you explain why it is fair (or realistic) for him and some other counters to defend 6 accelerations of mine and then be able to spam 100 accelerations ~130 kmh and all I can do is run around and defend in hope I can somehow get the point? It's not like 6 accelerations is a huge number...so cool...

P.S. If I hit 145-150, counter can hit back 140+ I think...and these scenarios are connected...you cannot say PB hits 150 but not take into account that this FAST ball will be hit 140+ by a counter

[Eronakold]

Lets be honest, it's rather retarded to compare "max" speeds and "average" speeds. The only time pb's or punchers can hit 162kmh is on putaways and that happens what, once every 5 sets, surely not often enough to make a difference. While ctrs hit their max speed rather often as they just need a fast incoming ball to hit their max and this happens to happen several times each game. (Most of the time there's barely a difference between the hitting speed of both styles)
When people hit 162kmh once a month you cant say its the max speed, our max speed is 150kmh and our average speed is 145kmh.

Also this "smart" acceleration stuff makes no sense at all, it's not like we can get in a "smart" position without wasting quite some accels 1st, so then we have like 2-3 accels left to finish the fracking point. While our opponents have unlimited accels of 136+kmh or unlimited insane spins to defend and turn the point around. When pb's/punchers run out of accels there's almost nothing they can do to turn the point around, just wait for an error or run around like headless chickens in the hope to fluke a deep ball.

[Alen]

Manu this is ridiculous....first of all i know that i'm not a good counter player like florian, hassad ecc....but i m not too bad....
I really have to commit to win against a mediocre player (watch the dmo)....the shoots are too slow ...I played with counter style my opponent idk.

Since everybody "cries" for power baseline and for puncher, now is my turn to "cry" for the counter style ......is pathetic

[Stajus]

Manutoo, enough is enough...These 2 sets show that counter is completely overpowered - as you can see in the attachment, if the puncher/PB player isn't defending perfectly there's like zero chance for them to win...and again like 10 pts when I ran out of accelerations and I won 2, 1 by scrambling for the ping pong at net and another one cause I played a lob and came to the net So, what you're trying to say is we should use lob and run to the net to win such points? ...Enough counter and defender bullshit, it's really time for you to make a fairly balanced game...both of these styles need major nerfing ASAP. I probably already attached something related to the superman defender style...idk...

P.S. If the counter player makes an equal ammount of errors as the puncher/PB and hits the ball early, puncher/PB players have no chance to win...no chance at all.

[Stajus]

Manu this is ridiculous....first of all i know that i'm not a good counter player like florian, hassad ecc....but i m not too bad....
I really have to commit to win against a mediocre player (watch the dmo)....the shoots are too slow ...I played with counter style my opponent idk.

Since everybody "cries" for power baseline and for puncher, now is my turn to "cry" for the counter style ......is pathetic

You can't play "counter" behind the baseline and expect to win easily LOL...You're supposed to come inside and attack the ball early whenever there's a chance...not just move left/right/left/right 3 metres behind the baseline...great up/down movement is essential for reaching the Top 10 level...If you're moving far behind the baseline throughout the rally, ofcourse your counter shots will not be fast enough because the opponent has too much time to defend them...

[Stajus]

Counter isn't destroyed at all...both counter and defender are still overpowered (always have been, if not Voja would accept to play me puncher vs puncher in tournaments but he refuses )...the set attached shows counter is totally fine...I have to defend during 2 times more points than Florian - tell me who the f**k is overpowered there? It's just that you and most players don't know how to use the counter style...A player of lesser defensive skills than me, using PB/puncher, would have been destroyed...Fact.

And my first post when I won 7-6 gives the same story. Win or lose, the story didn't change

[manutoo]

Ap500S,
I'll look the .dmo later (got a big bunch to watch now ), but I guess Stajus is right on this one ; you have to stay near the baseline or even inside it to play efficiently with the Counter style.

[adner]

Which proves why counter/defender styles aren't overpowered: most people can't play as efficiently as Florian or Voja. Nerfing those styles will make them entirely unplayable for average players.

[Alen]

You can't play "counter" behind the baseline and expect to win easily LOL...You're supposed to come inside and attack the ball early whenever there's a chance...not just move left/right/left/right 3 metres behind the baseline...great up/down movement is essential for reaching the Top 10 level...If you're moving far behind the baseline throughout the rally, ofcourse your counter shots will not be fast enough because the opponent has too much time to defend them...

you're right, I watched my movements and the movements of Florian .... I have to attack the ball (like Florian does against you) and do not wait!
but the difference is that I'm not a top10 player

[Stajus]

Which proves why counter/defender styles aren't overpowered: most people can't play as efficiently as Florian or Voja. Nerfing those styles will make them entirely unplayable for average players.

The maximum potential of all styles should be roughly the same (definition of a "balanced" game)...no one cares about "average"...If Florian plays as a PB/puncher he can't do what he does - I mean he can use similar tactics but he will hit many more errors and his tactics will be a lot less efficient...

Meaning, if you had the following matches the following would happen:

Counter Florian destroys puncher/PB Florian
Defender Voja destroys whatever Voja

[Florian]

And my first post when I won 7-6 gives the same story. Win or lose, the story didn't change

Dear Stanko, since the major change of the january build (the "lag is dead version") nothing has changed to improve the counter's abilities to have an edge on anything, actually in that time in which we were playing mostly on newline and then IH, you were winning slightly more often than i did when we played each other (exos and tournies). Actually the counter's advantages have even been clearly reduced ! Since you only lost to Voja and me recently, you can still prevent yourself from admitting that i defend better than before and do less ues (and when that doesn't happen, you win like in those 2 exos on clay just before those you just posted here, when you won 6-4 and 7-6). If you were losing badly to every counter (and you can't say i'm the only one able to play counter here...) then you might be able to prove a point (like vs Voja i guess, but first you should see if he's so much overpowered on every surface, not only clay).

+ i may add that during those 2 sets you just posted, you sucked a lot on returns and missed balls, while i didn't...(that time)

[Florian]

The maximum potential of all styles should be roughly the same (definition of a "balanced" game)...no one cares about "average"...If Florian plays as a PB/puncher he can't do what he does - I mean he can use similar tactics but he will hit many more errors and his tactics will be a lot less efficient...

That sentence is as smart as saying "tennis would be a fair game if Nadal was able to win all his matches using fed's tactics and game style". I used to play PB 2 years ago, wasn't that bad, but my kind of tactics fit much better to the counter style (even if in 2011 it sometimes felt a bit desperate on newline or clay because i didn't have much chance of winning a few sets except maybe on grass or very fast surfaces, mostly because that movement didn't fit me and fitted players like you and ero better).

[Stajus]

Dear Stanko, since the major change of the january build (the "lag is dead version") nothing has changed to improve the counter's abilities to have an edge on anything, actually in that time in which we were playing mostly on newline and then IH, you were winning slightly more often than i did when we played each other (exos and tournies). Actually the counter's advantages have even been clearly reduced ! Since you only lost to Voja and me recently, you can still prevent yourself from admitting that i defend better than before and do less ues (and when that doesn't happen, you win like in those 2 exos on clay just before those you just posted here, when you won 6-4 and 7-6). If you were losing badly to every counter (and you can't say i'm the only one able to play counter here...) then you might be able to prove a point (like vs Voja i guess, but first you should see if he's so much overpowered on every surface, not only clay).

+ i may add that during those 2 sets you just posted, you sucked a lot on returns and missed balls, while i didn't...(that time)

Hahahhaahhaahaah...Bingo...And maybe now you can use your brain and see why counter is overpowered? What has changed since the AO update? That also made counter overpowered Acapulco was the extreme of it Now you got it Voja, I'm not even going to comment, with the current version he can allow people to take sets again and then win the final set, boring...The funny thing is so many people think they "can" beat him but lose every time in the final set...It's called being delusional, and Voja is quite smart to allow those people to reach 5 setters in GSs so they don't realise how overpowered he can be...Voja "the final set magician"

Returns and/or missed balls totally do not matter in this story (I never claimed I played my best there)...the ease with which you can solve even rallies (same case in the match I won), is just totally pathetic and overpowered...and you know that very well