Issues with Tour Draws

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Issues with Tour Draws

Postby MarkChan » 03 May 2015, 15:17

Since last year I have already felt that the draw is the same or similar every week. But I thought at first it was just my personal feeling. Then when I chat randomly with other players they get the same feeling. And some other things also tended to confirm my thought.

1. Algo, the moderator, is in Madrid singles Qualification when he is ranked 29. He should definitely be in the main draw according to his ranking. This either means that the draw is manually made or there is something wrong with the automated draw generator.
OT_ViewTournament.php?Trn=817

2. In Australian Open, inactive players who didn’t even queue (such as deguan, jhon-dim) are put into the draw, and even banned players are put there (such as Nadi madi and the Joker). When I ask mod Algo why is it the case, he told me: “it isn’t your business because I can suspense players’ ban when I want and it is funny to see the Joker play with Nadi madi.” on skype.
OT_ViewTournament.php?Trn=621
So
2.1 Where are the rules if mods can suspense bans according to his will?
2.2 Is it appropriate that when a player enquires mods decision, mods reply with the authoritarian attitude of “none of your business”? Some other players tell me this too when they ask mods about tour things.
2.3 Don’t mods realize putting banned and inactive players into the draw would lead to unbalanced draw? When they cannot play, the section of that draw becomes empty immediately. This isn’t fair to other players who are in tougher section because of this. And it makes people suspect even more if mods are put into the emptier sections.

3. Mess in Davis Cup’s draw. First, Serbia, the defending champion, wasn’t even put into the draw. And somehow Bosnia got 4th seed, which I don’t think have great performances in Davis Cup in the past. Then after Serbia pointed out the issue, the mod didn’t re-release the draw but just manually replacing Serbia with Bosina’s original placement. So you can still see the different font size. Are you calling this random draw when it can be changed manually?...And how come mods always make mistakes?...
http://tenniselbowtour2.webs.com/Davis%20Cup%202015.pdf

4. Incredible coincidence in draws. Many players tell me they always draw the same guys in the same section. That means they meet as early as possible. Some of them have played with the same guy over 4 times this season. And there are lots of back-to -back R1 meetings. And since I follow doubles tour more often, I’d use doubles tour as example. Let’s look at IW and Miami doubles, the first two masters of the season.
IW:
Upper half:
1st seed Heinrich draws 8th seed Sorana
4th seed Nadi madi draws 7th seed Andre Tomas
Bottom half:
3rd seed Dr. Ivo draws 5th seed Zugzwang
2nd seed ShoNe draws 6th seed MarkChan

Maimi:
Upper half:
1st seed Heinrich draws 8th seed Sorana
4th seed Nadi madi draws 7th seed Andre Tomas
Bottom half:
3rd seed Dr. Ivo draws 5th seed Zugzwang
2nd seed ShoNe draws 6th seed MarkChan

The seed placements are 100% the same! How’s it possible?

And then Madrid’s doubles draw is similar to Monte Carlo’s too. I drew Sorana and ShoNe drew Maryan again for 1-4 vs 5-8 seeds. And ShoNe told me he always draws Maryan in doubles this year. When Maryan wasn’t seeded, he plays him in his opener (Rio de Jeneiro and Acapulco) When now Maryan is seeded and they can meet no earlier than QF, ShoNe gets him in QF every time (Monte Carlo and Madrid).

5. Personal Experiences: There are many more examples related to these coincidences. I don’t want to put words into people’s mouths and I’d prefer let them speak about their personal experiences in this post. I’d only share my personal experience here. So I get the KING for two consecutive weeks in singles in early rounds now. (Bucharest and Madrid) In doubles I get VampireZattitude all the time since last year. We meet as early as possible every time. In Metz we played in R2(she got a bye for R1 as 1st seed). Same situation in Shanghai and Australian Open when I was not seeded (that means two more R2 meetings). Now I am seeded and we cannot meet before SF. And unsurprisingly she was drawn to my 1/2 half. So I draw her as early as possible for four consecutive tournaments that both of us are present. Coincidence, again?...

In brief, why are there are so many “coincidences” (bracketing this word because I doubt if that’s really random coincidence). And why are there are so many errors in draws every time? Can someone please look into it to see whether there are some bugs or there’s problem with the ways of making draws that make it not random at all? Or is there some human factors that make draws manually and we, normal players, aren’t kept from knowing? I’d also welcome other players to express their own experiences and views. Because some players tell me they think mods are always able to get weak draw and avoid certain players.(and consequently RL or WO that favors certain players) As I am not familiar with singles enough, I cannot judge but I welcome them to talk about it here because it has clearly something to do with the draw and the ways draws are made.

P.S. ShoNe told me to post on Off-Topic because he is afraid Algo would delete post…I have nothing personal against a particular mods though. But yeh at least posting on Off-Topic means nobody’s posts would be deleted or amended by tour mods so that they can express more freely in this controversial topic.
Singles Titles and Finalists:
250: Kuala Lumpur '15
Challenger: Georgia F1 '14,Wroclaw '16

Doubles Titles and Finalists:
GS: Australian Open '15,Roland Garros '15(RU)
Masters: Paris '14(RU),Madrid '15(RU),Rome '15(RU)
250: Kuala Lumpur '14,Doha '16
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Re: Issues with Tour Draws

Postby Milivoj96 » 03 May 2015, 15:47

I played with Heinrich 2 times this year in R2 (cuz he is 1.seed and don't play 1R) in Quito and Indian Wells, and If I won today against Zugzwang I would play with him again in R2 (I lost 2-1 in sets). Is that coincidence or Heinrich want easy opponent in R2. :D And also I saw great players playing qualifying in masters, some players with better ranking play qlf and someone with bad ranking is in main draw. I hope other players will also leave comments here. Most of recent topics don't have too much answers.
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Re: Issues with Tour Draws

Postby NESXA » 03 May 2015, 16:06

I agree with you. 2014, Maryanucci was my opponent usually on singles. This year on doubles (4 times - Rio de Janeiro, Acapulco, Monte-Carlo and now Madrid) I expect him few times this year.

When one of players didn't want to play, Algo (of course) made RL, and that player won?! On my question how that player deserved RL, he asked me: "Are you a mod?" Also, I can't win by RL if Algo did. I remember I won one time by Algo's RL and it should been w.o. But on my question, he said me: Look that as w.o. That is not ok from his side.

I heard he is organizer on one forum. When I wanted to play on this forum, my friend told me: "Rodrigo Valenzuela is organizer and if you need something, ask him". I didn't know for our Algo in that time. But never mind, I don't have proves now.

There are different rules. Actually one rule. (RL 50-50)... For example, Sampreas made RL 50-50 when I couldn't play against Algo because of lag. But after that, Algo didn't make RL 50-50 when I couldn't play with my opponent because of lag. In first case I had more chances for RL, and in 2nd case, I had less chances.

Visible list? Yes, list is visible for mods and their friends. I know that. I am sorry, but I can't be good friends with mods only because of that.
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Re: Issues with Tour Draws

Postby Heinrich von Westphalen » 03 May 2015, 16:32

Just to sort things out:

  • moderators (neither Algo, Sampreas nor me) aren't able to reset, modify or change draws
  • the only way to modify the draw by moderators is to add or delete players before the draw is released (every action is logged and visable for moderators)
  • the order of draws are random (except seeds)

Last but not least I have to say that just Manutoo knows the principle of contingency behind the draws. So maybe we should wait for his reply before starting a drama here ...

Kind regards,
Heinrich von Westphalen.
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Re: Issues with Tour Draws

Postby NESXA » 03 May 2015, 16:41

Heinrich von Westphalen wrote:
  • moderators (neither Algo, Sampreas nor me) aren't able to reset, modify or change draws


What about Rotterdam doubles, 2015? Draw was created. After that, draw was re-created with 2 new names (players from Memphis). I remember, in first draw, Nadi was on my half of draw, and after that Zugzwang replace him.
TOUR MOD (GRAND SLAMS, MASTERS, DAVIS CUP) - SKYPE (SHONEEEEE95)
RANKING: CURRENT (BEST) -----> S: No.8 (No.2) -----> D: N/A (No.1)
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Re: Issues with Tour Draws

Postby Heinrich von Westphalen » 03 May 2015, 17:04

ShoNe wrote:What about Rotterdam doubles, 2015? Draw was created. After that, draw was re-created with 2 new names (players from Memphis). I remember, in first draw, Nadi was on my half of draw, and after that Zugzwang replace him.

Only Manutoo is able to do this.

Kind regards,
Heinrich von Westphalen.
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Re: Issues with Tour Draws

Postby LetsGoBro » 03 May 2015, 17:05

After some reflection, I too am starting to question the integrity of these draws. I do remember landing in Maryanucci's half of draw in singles four times in a row last year (USO, Shenzhen, Shanghai, and Vienna). Same with landing in Heinrich's side four consecutive times starting from the end of last year (Paris, Brisbane, Sydney, Australian Open) and again at Indian Wells. There's also the rare occasion of facing jwmjwm back-to-back in Brisbane and Sydney, but I'll let that one go since that didn't happen again.

At first I thought these draws were a coincidence, but now that I see that other players are experiencing this, it really makes you wonder if these draws are random at all.

Heinrich von Westphalen wrote:[*]the only way to modify the draw by moderators is to add or delete players before the draw is released (every action is logged and visable for moderators)


Not necessarily. Last year, the US Open draw was released and the doubles draw was re-released because Viggy couldn't queue in time (he personally told me this, and I have evidence). I'm not pointing fingers here, but that actually happened. Whoever authorised the re-release of the US Open 2014 doubles draw, provided preferential treatment which doesn't seem fair to the rest of us. And weirdly after the draw was re-released, I landed on Viggy's side of the draw. Seems awfully strange to me.
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Re: Issues with Tour Draws

Postby NESXA » 03 May 2015, 17:11

Heinrich von Westphalen wrote:Only Manutoo is able to do this.


Hmmm. I reminded Algo to re-create, I think at 4am. He told me that he forgot. And when he created new draw, he told me something about seeds, but it isn't important for this case.
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Re: Issues with Tour Draws

Postby Naastooo » 03 May 2015, 17:46

I have a feeling that im only playing with same 5 players over the past 2 years, this year i played 4 times with Sale93 , all in the R2.
Singles Ranking(14)
2015 results :
W: Moscow
SF: Memphis, Miami, Houston, Bucharest, Istanbul, Washington
QF: Doha, Quito, Monte Carlo, Halle, Bogota
R 16: Indian Wells, Madrid, Rome, Wimbledon, Montreal, Cincinati
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Re: Issues with Tour Draws

Postby MarkChan » 03 May 2015, 17:55

Naastooo wrote:I have a feeling that im only playing with same 5 players over the past 2 years, this year i played 4 times with Sale93 , all in the R2.

I would add that you are seeded and get a bye for R1, so you are playing against him in all of your openers this season. The "as early as possible" theory applies here.
Singles Titles and Finalists:
250: Kuala Lumpur '15
Challenger: Georgia F1 '14,Wroclaw '16

Doubles Titles and Finalists:
GS: Australian Open '15,Roland Garros '15(RU)
Masters: Paris '14(RU),Madrid '15(RU),Rome '15(RU)
250: Kuala Lumpur '14,Doha '16
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Re: Issues with Tour Draws

Postby Algo » 03 May 2015, 18:14

3rd point: laziness. I only had to put Serbia in so...
Be a mod for as long and you'll get it. Mistakes happen but for a good while now, players seem to not understand that.

Draws are automated, we have nothing to do with how it turns out to be.

How is this off topic?
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Re: Issues with Tour Draws

Postby MarkChan » 03 May 2015, 18:22

Algo wrote:3rd point: laziness. I only had to put Serbia in so...
Be a mod for as long and you'll get it. Mistakes happen but for a good while now, players seem to not understand that.

Draws are automated, we have nothing to do with how it turns out to be.

How is this off topic?

Ok you admit you are lazy. Then why do you still hold the mod position if u know you cannot do the job properly anymore? I am just curious. Even you admit it yourself.

And I know everyone makes mistakes. but if the mistakes are due to laziness or some other reasons and it is not happening the first time, why do you still think it is tolerable and use the "everyone makes mistakes" excuse every time? I am sure some people who want to be mods would make less mistakes than a mod who admits he is lazy...

And what about the 1st and 2nd pts? Why are you in qualification if the draw is automatically generated? and Why did you put inactive and banned players into the draw? Why don't you answer these two points?
Last edited by MarkChan on 03 May 2015, 18:23, edited 1 time in total.
Singles Titles and Finalists:
250: Kuala Lumpur '15
Challenger: Georgia F1 '14,Wroclaw '16

Doubles Titles and Finalists:
GS: Australian Open '15,Roland Garros '15(RU)
Masters: Paris '14(RU),Madrid '15(RU),Rome '15(RU)
250: Kuala Lumpur '14,Doha '16
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Re: Issues with Tour Draws

Postby NESXA » 03 May 2015, 18:22

Algo wrote:How is this off topic?

This isn't off topic, but we must post in off topic because you like to practise deleting posts.
TOUR MOD (GRAND SLAMS, MASTERS, DAVIS CUP) - SKYPE (SHONEEEEE95)
RANKING: CURRENT (BEST) -----> S: No.8 (No.2) -----> D: N/A (No.1)
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Re: Issues with Tour Draws

Postby Algo » 03 May 2015, 18:35

[quote="MarkChan"
Ok you admit you are lazy. Then why do you still hold the mod position if u know you cannot do the job properly anymore? I am just curious. Even you admit it yourself.

And I know everyone makes mistakes. but if the mistakes are due to laziness or some other reasons and it is not happening the first time, why do you still think it is tolerable and use the "everyone makes mistakes" excuse every time? I am sure some people who want to be mods would make less mistakes than a mod who admits he is lazy...

And what about the 1st and 2nd pts? Why are you in qualification if the draw is automatically generated? and Why did you put inactive and banned players into the draw? Why don't you answer these two points?[/quote]

Let me rephrase that so your literal reading sklls don't suffer: I was in a hurry because it had to start so why should I spent 20 mins redoing a draw that I could've easily fix by just putting Serbia in and moving what had to be moved according to the list. It's being practical. When I'm absolutely unable to handle a tournament due to schedule, I just don't.

I have no idea where your suspicion comes from. "Ask the script" if you want to know how can that happen.
I didn't even know I was in qualys 'til now. If there were other errors and someone had pointed them out to me, I'd know, because I wasn't sure about playing so I didn't check it.
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Re: Issues with Tour Draws

Postby SàLîM » 03 May 2015, 20:32

I agree , I meet Maryanucci 5 times this season , always i'm on his way ...
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