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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0

Postby manutoo » 10 Dec 2008, 07:21

Lob, Topspin, Slice & Player Speed :
Lob :
I did a try with a defender CPU always lobbing, in Pro level, with 100% in speed and 1m85 high.
With 100% in all forehand skills, I could win by winners about 25% of points, and ~10% of faults (coz he was running too much when hitting the lob). I guess with a human the result would have been a bit better, probably near of 50%, especially coz the CPU knows his own speed very clearly and acts more or less accordingly. To do the winners, I had to stand just after the baseline, about 30cm behind.
I also tried to rush the net after the start of the lob, and I could almost reach the service line where I could do an accelerated volley with a good success ratio.
Anyway, it makes the gameplay very painful to have the opponent doing only lob, so I'll try to raise the acceleration speed by ~5km/h on high balls for next update, we'll see if that helps...

Lob on return:
Normally, it should be hard to lob on return, coz it needs to stand very very far of the baseline to avoid the "over powered" effect (when u can't control the incoming ball speed, and u send the ball too long). When the returner stands so far of the baseline, it should give time to the server to rush the net when he sees he's getting a lob on return, no ? (this is less true when the lag is > 50ms, coz in this case, the service power is limited to 60%, but the returner still has to stand a bit far of the baseline)

TopSpin :
Right now, I don't have idea to balance that, except the additional 5km/h on high ball should help it a bit as well...
Is the problem only with 100% Topsin + Defender ? or any style + 100% Topspin is too annoying ? If it's only with the Defender, I could lower a bit its anti-length handicap when doing the topspin strike.

Slice :
the slice animation has no effect on the strike when doing a acceleration (except it changes the sweet spot position).

For next update, the slice speed will also be increased by up to 10km/h, depending of the topspin skill. The higher the skill, the lower the speed bonus. It'll allow to do lower slice (thus, it might help better to fight the topspin).

Player Speed:
The max speed is 30km/h when u have 100% in Speed, whatever ur height is.
For a tennis pro, this is very fast, but it's far to be inhumanely fast, coz top sprinters can reach ~40km/h (but without holding a racket ;) ).
To run from left lane line to right lane line takes ~0.05s less for a 1m55 height player compared to a 2m player. That's not exactly a lot faster... :roll:
The "huge" difference of speed perceived is mainly due to the difference in player size ; ie: this is an optical illusion due to the ratio of speed / size. This ratio is 30% bigger for the 2m high player, thus the perceived relative speed is 30% smaller. And his legs also moves 30% slower, reinforcing the optical illusion... :)


@Tom Paulman :
>> Fair Mode: Service max. 80 %
This limit is only for the power.


@S.Williamz :
>> when your opponent uses a lot of topspin, every time you are hitting, you are pushed automatically a lot back
By "automatically" u mean u are forced to step back by urself, or that the auto-pos makes u walk back ? The auto-pos being on medium in Online games, I assume u mean u have to walk back by urself...
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0

Postby Togtdyalttai » 10 Dec 2008, 07:38

Manutoo, I don't think it matters whether you're a defender or not when you're using topspin. Yes, you get a bit of a bonus on it, but the main thing is the problem with 100% topspin+doing the topspin strike most of the time instead of doing accelerations. It's too easy to just keep going like that forever. And the flat strikes hit off of topspin shots are not penetrating enough to get past the player running around and doing topspin strikes all the time. Correct me if I'm wrong here, S.Williamz.
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0

Postby S.Williamz » 10 Dec 2008, 08:25

Togtdyalttai wrote:Manutoo, I don't think it matters whether you're a defender or not when you're using topspin. Yes, you get a bit of a bonus on it, but the main thing is the problem with 100% topspin+doing the topspin strike most of the time instead of doing accelerations. It's too easy to just keep going like that forever. And the flat strikes hit off of topspin shots are not penetrating enough to get past the player running around and doing topspin strikes all the time. Correct me if I'm wrong here, S.Williamz.


Yes that's right. It's not the defender style it's the topspin, especially max topspin+topspin strike. This makes it so that you are never under pressure, because it's very easy to defend like that. I've tried it myself and have no problems whatsoever. I just think it should be way harder to defend that well. I can read the paper and eat and talk on the phone at the same time and still beat those poor aggressive players with the spin lol. Which isn't the case when I'm playing my normal, more flat game.

I think the problem is that the spin shots travel in the air a long time and push the opponent back(yes, automatically), so there is way too much time for the spin player to recover from ANY situations. It doesn't matter if it's the fastest surface and you hit the hardest possible shots on the lines, the spin player has no problems, not even if he makes some mistake or something, like hits in the middle. lol So this effect needs to be tuned down way more.
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0

Postby btaylor » 10 Dec 2008, 09:00

In real tennis exists a species known by various names...i.e. (dinker, pusher, moonballer, lobber) who everybody in their right mind absolutely DREADS playing against :evil: It's unfortunate, but it seems that this type of player has infiltrated the TE community (it had to happen) In so much as is fair, there also exists other species...Big Bangers, Serve Volleyers/ Net Rushers, Counterpunchers, and All Courters. I guess that the Moonballer/Lobbers of the world derive a great measure of satisfaction/joy from playing this type of game (maybe it's some sort of wierd psychological boost from winning without having to take ANY chances what-so-ever.) :twisted: My hope for TE is that somehow Manu can find some solution to lessen the effectiveness of these types of players while still keeping the game fun for all, even these players. I find from my real court experience ( and it took years for me to figure out) if one has patience and a sound attacking strategy these Lobbers can be whupped-up on (since they never attack, they are seldom effective at it) However given the limitations of TE (mind you, it's a great game) because of the volley difficulty level it's extemely difficult to realistically put the ball away since as CC stated, if the human opponent or the CPU is at a high level of efficiency he can run endlessly/tirelessly/insanely at MACH 1 speeds to track down what should be winners. Togtdyalttai wants only to defend, Brad1981 wants more/stronger accelerations, S.williamz feels that neither stronger flatter shots nor more efficient volleying is the answer. It seems Big Bangers would dominate if they use accelerations indiscriminately, as well as Volleyers and Moonball/Lobbers. The key word here is "indiscriminately". It would be nice if all players would adopt the All-court approach to the game (but that will only happen when cows fly 8-) ) Poor Manu, if he tweaks one thing then someone else complains (myself included) I believe we all derive a great deal of fun from this game and my hope is that somehow it can be made to satisfy all :) p.s. Manu is it possible to use MTRUN in on-line games?
Last edited by btaylor on 10 Dec 2008, 09:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0

Postby btaylor » 10 Dec 2008, 09:10

Also, when I play against the CPU, I try to use mostly normal strikes for most of the point except for some passing shots when I use acceleration. It's like that in my real tennis too. I pick and choose when to use power to my advantage for winners or approaches to the net. While I feel extremely confident in my defensive/counterpunching game I am always THINKING of attacking, not staying at the baseline all day long throwing up moonballs. For years I use to play that way, until I discovered the beauty of the all-court game (barring injury or old-age I'll never go back.) Even Nadal attacks. However, in TE09 at the higher levels, when the CPU starts BANGING the ball repeatedly from side to side it's almost impossible to gain an advantage in the point using normal strikes. Even your accelerations are neutralized. Then it becomes a game of Bang-Bang (which some people also like.) 8-)
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0

Postby CC » 10 Dec 2008, 16:36

Thank you, Manutoo. That is exactly the explanation that I needed. I kept trying to determine whether or not the scale of the graphics compared to real-life (seeing what in real-life is a big court compressed to the size of my screen) was what the issue really was and not the actual speed of the players. Your explanation of the optical illusion helps me understand this.

Also, I wanted you to comment about the game speed vs. human speed, which you did very well. I couldn't remember with all of the changes made because of our comments whether or not the speed was still realistic. Playing TE2009 helps me to play real tennis, so I want what I see on the screen to be as realistic as possible, so that I at least have some understanding that what I see on the screen is somewhat possible on the real court.

I think that others have noticed a difference with the shorter player vs. a taller player, but maybe it all is just an illusion as far as the speed goes. Hmmm. I was trying to play with a player my own height, but my game seems better with the shorter player than with the 6'4" player. So, I find myself tweaking the player characteristics in order to play better rather than playing with characteristics like myself and trying to learn better skills and to win in spite of those characteristics (which I would prefer to do).

By the way -- I've wanted to know this for a long time -- what is the graphic that symbolizes the Arcade mode? The simulation mode is a glove, but I can't figure out what the Arcade symbol is. Is it a thumb?

Thanks! :D
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0

Postby CC » 10 Dec 2008, 17:22

Manutoo,

You did not comment on this, so I wanted to mention it again, as it is annoying when trying to replay points. At the end of a match, when I replay the last point, the chat window appears, and I can't see everything. Is there any way to prevent this?

There is a typo at least on the blue-green court graphics. "Drink" "Breath" should probably be "Drink" "Breathe." (or "Drink water") :wink:
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0

Postby Brad1981 » 10 Dec 2008, 17:35

I think it wouldn't hurt to add 2-3 more accelerations per profile. Then again, I am using the MTRUN (when playing CPU) :wink: BUT, I feel that my use of the MTRUN is realistic. I'm not using it to gain any advantage speedwise. It's just that I feel the player should have a faster acceleration and be more nimble. This is why I feel online mode is a little difficult/frustrating. For me, it feels like my player is running in quicksand. So, for CPU play, I bump up acceleration to 1.50, BUT I reduce maxspeed to 0.90, which is below the default level. I feel that these settings give me the most realistic experience. But this is just my opinion. For online play, I dare hardly ever come to the net, because, again, I feel the quicksand effect, and because volleys are more difficult. So therefore, I would never use anything except the Defender or Power Baseliner profile, because even with the net advantage of some of the other profiles, I feel there are not enough accelerations to entice me to use those profiles, because I am already hesitant to come to net, and the additional net advantage/jumps does little to make me want to come to net, because it's so difficult to get there and make decent volleys. I find that I am passed continuously before I even get to net a lot of the time, so in online play, I just don't come to net, and stack all my profile points for backhand, forhand, and power (while reducing the net skills points to almost 0). Heck, maybe I just need more practice...but I've tried, and again, most of the time I can't even get to the net before a passing shot goes by me. Maybe a bump in acceleration and a reduction in maxspeed would work (as it has for me in CPU playing mode).
All of this is mainly just referring to online play. But I think it still wouldn't hurt to add an additional acceleration or two to the Puncher, Varied, and Volleyer profiles.
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0

Postby Togtdyalttai » 10 Dec 2008, 20:18

btaylor wrote: Togtdyalttai wants only to defend


This isn't true: I have the same mindset as you talked about. Although I am confident in defending and counterpunching, I am looking to attack. I do come to the net sometimes, and I try to hit winners when I see the opportunity. I'd like to play you sometime so you can see what I really play like. Do you have MSN? Also btaylor, you should enter tournaments. :)
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0

Postby CC » 10 Dec 2008, 22:35

Manutoo,

It seems that balls do not strike a player's body. For instance, sometimes I will hit a shot that a player does not swing at which should strike their feet or other body part, and the ball appears to go through their legs or whatever. I think mainly I am referring to when the opponent is on the baseline and I hit a shot that they don't swing at which lands right behind them and barely misses the baseline (a little too long). Can I know when this happens that my shot actually did maybe go between their feet and was long (it obviously was long), or is it possible that the ball really could have been aimed to hit their body on a real court but maybe the game does not allow this? I think that in real tennis, if I strike a ball that would go out and it hits the opponent, that the opponent loses the point (assuming that the ball just bounces off of them and hits the ground, etc.). Does TE2009 work this way, also? I know that for balls that are not going out, there is a safe strike, which is automatic. But what about the balls that are going out (so their is no safe strike) but can't because they hit the player -- that is what I am asking about. :?: :)
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0

Postby btaylor » 11 Dec 2008, 08:08

Sorry Togtdyalttai, I stand corrected in citing you as wanting only to defend. :oops: I believe it was maybe Yugioh who I was speaking of. If not, I apologize to him also. My point is, S.williamz complained of playing SOME players SOMEWHERE who rely MAINLY on defending and lobbing. I have only played online twice, in TE06 when I was just introduced to the game, I won a tight match against a player of similar beginning strengths and then got absolutely SLAUGHTERED by a much better player the second time! :P I haven't played anyone yet in TE09 because I use mtrun a lot against the CPU and feel somewhat like Brad1981 does about the normal quickness about the court and net as being too slow and unrealistic for me. I use a keyboard for movement and I think my reflexes are pretty good as well as my volleying, but for the love of me I just don't seem to be able to move my player around effectively when playing at the higher levels at normal speed. Like Brad1981 said, "quicksand!" Maybe I just need to practice more without mtrun and try some matches online to see what really goes on for myself. Against the CPU, it seems all too often to anticipate your strikes and then jets to the ball at the VERY SAME micro-instant that you press the keys... like an android/cyborg (no wrongfooting and very little hitting BEHIND the CPU) Maybe against some human players they may guess wrong more often (just like in real tennis) and give you an advantage. p.s. I do have MSN :wink:
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0

Postby S.Williamz » 11 Dec 2008, 08:21

I personally find the movement very good. These days after the update I don't even use a short player for extra speed bonus, I feel a taller player is very effective as well. Depends on play style, I guess.
Anyway, about volleys, THEY DO NOT NEED TO BE ANY EASIER! lol In fact, there is already a worrying development in serve-volley style, it is extremely effective when serving wide and rushing the net. Most of the times the server wins the point. Also, for me it's not hard to rush the net in rallies. You should only do that when you know the opponent is under pressure and can't hit a good pass. Again, takes practice. Also, I mostly use normal volleys insted of acceleration, with those you rarely hit errors, and they are effective as well. :D
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0

Postby btaylor » 11 Dec 2008, 08:23

Also, compounding the CPU speed, more often my player's volleys below net level seem to be weak pop-up sitters just waiting for the CPU to continue running them down ad nauseum, even when I seem to be in good strike position. :| In real tennis when I hit the low volleys, more often I can still get some good pace on the ball when volleying to the opposite sideline. While I too feel the accelerated/normal volley strikes are just fine, to be more realistic, the low volleys should not so often be slow pop-ups. S.williamz, I'm in your corner about the lobbers, but on the one hand you're not happy with them and on the other hand, ditto for the volleyers...As I stated in an earlier post, how great it would be if only everyone would play the all-court game, but dream on 8-) At some point I guess we would lose all variety and everyone would play the same...
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0

Postby vaidisova » 11 Dec 2008, 13:32

Manutoo,

is it possible for you to add the new feature like "strokes count" to display after the long rallies points (let's say 20 strokes up) are over? we always see some in the real match on TV.
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0

Postby CC » 12 Dec 2008, 06:17

I've noticed the CPU player configured as two-handed backhand using a one-handed backhand slice. Is this normal? Do real tennis players that use two-handed backhand frequently also use one-handed backhand slice?

Also, I hit four accelerated shots in a row to CPU player configured as above, with CPU player on her right side in corner on baseline (left-handed player), and she returned them all with a slice until I finally hit a winner to same side (I was on opposite corner (my right side, near baseline)). I thought it odd that CPU would use slice so often. Is this a defensive shot that it is using for some particular reason?
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