Mana Games

[sharpbyte]

First of all, I'd like to establish that I've played many tennis games throughout my life, and none came even close to the thrilling experience I get from playing Tennis Elbow. I love the career mode, the dynamic rankings, the grind to build up my player from a young scrub fighting at the lower levels to eventually reach the top tiers of tennis. The fact that I can customise the controls and difficulty and really tailor the game to my skill level, plus the different playing styles of the AI give me a great challenge and a very rewarding experience. It's a great game, especially using one of the bigger mods (I'm using Sam's as of now.)

I did not have the time to go back and read the whole topic, so I don't know if this came up already, but in my opinion the only part where the game really lacks, is to represent the financial struggle of young pros at the Future and Challenger level. The prize money becomes a practically meaningless feature in the game, if you can just travel to any tournament at any time, there's no added pressure of having to earn enough to keep going. So, in order to make the game a bit deeper in this aspect, I'd like to suggest a few things.

Introducing both expenses and additional incomes.

Expenses:

- Travel
- Accommodation
- Living costs
- Coaches
- Gear
- Entry fees

Give us the ability to pick lower level stuff, but suffer skill penalties if we do. If I have to pick a cheap hostel to stay in, sharing a room with others, I might not get much sleep with my roommate snoring all night, that should effect my ability to hit that 200Km/h serve regularly... Same applies to travel or even living costs.

Better coaches could also help improve faster, better gear might give you an extra skillpoint or two in various things (shoes improving speed, rackets improving groundstrokes or serve, etc. No need to over-complicate this, just a few options would suffice.)

Regular coaches get paid and they have expenses of their own you have to pay for!

Incomes:

- Sponsors (Various types giving you either money, free gear, free travel or free coaching for the length of the contract with various goals set for possible extensions and bonuses)
- National federations - getting help with travel and accommodation costs for a fixed amount of time (1 year for example), depending on national ranking)
- Certain tournaments offer free hosting
- Club tennis - play in non-ranking tournaments for a flat-fee (offering less experience, but getting paid per match, even if you lose, bonus for winning the final). These club events could help you getting back on the pro circuit if you run out of money completely. It shouldn't give you more than a few hundred $s per match (higher if your ranking is higher), but the level of the competition should be significantly lower (lower the difficulty for these matches), allowing you to earn something without the need to pay for travel and accommodation. The occasional pro opponent should show up in these tournaments, giving you an unexpected challenge.

None of this should be automatic, there's always a random element in life - you could be well inside the top 200 and still not have a solid sponsorship deal, maybe add an extra skill (charisma), and allow us to use some xp points on trying to attract better sponsors (like some tennis players actually do, using social media to build a fanbase/following - it takes time away from other things, but can be worth it).

Now, I'm sure there are plenty of others who couldn't care less about these financial struggles in a tennis game, so all of these should be optional by introducing different starting budgets - giving you the choice of starting your career as a rich kid with wealthy parents, allowing you to do whatever you want, use whatever gear and coaches you want, if that's what you're after. But I'm pretty sure there are people playing this game who wouldn't mind adding a bit more realism to the off-court part of the career.

Apart from these, a few specific suggestions that need to be fixed in my opinion:

- Maybe I just couldn't find it, but there seems to be no way of checking a player's character sheet other than our own player at any other time but before the match. This is especially problematic when I try to choose a doubles partner, I have no way of knowing what the other guy is like unless I played him before. We should have this option, by adding a character sheet button to the activity screen of every player - and vice versa, a see activity button on the character sheet screen.
- I'm sure others mentioned this already: there should be a "back to the menu" button on every screen in the menu. Currently, if I want to check my next opponent, I can't go back to the menu without exiting and restarting the game. (Actually, linking all the screens and making it possible to reach any screen from any other within a few clicks should be top priority - this is one of the reasons why the Football manager series is so successful, everything is accessible all the time.)
- A better calendar screen that can be accessed any time. (I'd suggest using tabs you could scroll through.) Instead of planning the schedule, I'm currently just kind of winging it, because it's too difficult to find the information I need.
- Draws are a bit too straightforward currently, the first event in the list gets all the highest ranked players, the second gets the rest of the best, the last event gets the worst ones. Should mix it up a bit, except for the Grand Slams where the highest ranked should always enter unless injured. (Even in qualifying, currently a bunch of 400-500 ranked guys are in the qualies for the Slams)
- At the start of the match, if I'm serving, my player starts serving immediately without me pushing any buttons. Give me time to at least find the controls...
- Injury for our own player should also be possible, just make it rare enough. (It's a game after all, a career-ending injury after playing 4-5 seasons would be too harsh...)

That's all I could think of in one go...

Thanks for making a lovely and deep tennis game! (I wish there were more games like this covering other sports, especially some of the winter sports would be good, like alpine skiing, biathlon...)

[Erik5300]

In my opinion, need to focus at the improvement of the process on the court (like strikes and movements), as already noticed at the moment that you will understand at a high level of the game - almost the whole game with purpose to win about the speed of reaction and the experience of the game, rather, even in a mechanical sequence, that doesn't fully reveal such a great game as tennis.
It's a game of tennis, and not a simulation of the player's career, which is very nice btw, but unfortunately, it's too expensive and you need to follow priorities.

[sharpbyte]

In my opinion, need to focus at the improvement of the process on the court (like strikes and movements), as already noticed at the moment that you will understand at a high level of the game - almost the whole game with purpose to win about the speed of reaction and the experience of the game, rather, even in a mechanical sequence, that doesn't fully reveal such a great game as tennis.
It's a game of tennis, and not a simulation of the player's career, which is very nice btw, but unfortunately, it's too expensive and you need to follow priorities.

You mean they need to follow your priorities?

In my opinion, the process on the court is already the best in any tennis game on the market. I wouldn't mind leaving it as it is, just extend other aspects of the game. The court gameplay could be improved for sure, but I highly doubt it's less expensive than creating a few additional formulas, adding some extra databases and integrate them into the existing system and GUI. (Saying this as a modder of other sports games and indie game developer myself.) Based on my own experience doing similar work, I doubt it would take longer than a couple of weeks (probably a lot less) to add all of those features I mentioned.

Plus, the entire World Tour mode is about the simulation of the player's career already.

I guess the difference in opinion comes from our own preferences, I always preferred deep single player modes compared to multiplayer, you seem to favour multiplayer, which is all about on-court action. Different strokes for different people, I guess, which is all good, maybe by TE5 we'll both get what we want.

[Erik5300]

You mean they need to follow your priorities?

In my opinion, the process on the court is already the best in any tennis game on the market. I wouldn't mind leaving it as it is, just extend other aspects of the game. The court gameplay could be improved for sure, but I highly doubt it's less expensive than creating a few additional formulas, adding some extra databases and integrate them into the existing system and GUI. (Saying this as a modder of other sports games and indie game developer myself.) Based on my own experience doing similar work, I doubt it would take longer than a couple of weeks (probably a lot less) to add all of those features I mentioned.

Plus, the entire World Tour mode is about the simulation of the player's career already.

I guess the difference in opinion comes from our own preferences, I always preferred deep single player modes compared to multiplayer, you seem to favour multiplayer, which is all about on-court action. Different strokes for different people, I guess, which is all good, maybe by TE5 we'll both get what we want.

TE4 should be for years, so TE5 est. 2028?) But yeah, Im also very like to play career mode, like in Fifa, and TE for sure.

[manutoo]

sharpbyte,
at least 2 third of what you have requested is in TEM, and thus will be in TEM2 (and it took me way more than 2 weeks to do them ).
It won't come in TE4 because it'd be an overkill and come in the way for many players. However, TEM2 matches may be playable, although gameplay may differ from TE4.

And you can check the Character Sheet of a player by clicking his name in his activity screen.

[sharpbyte]

sharpbyte,
at least 2 third of what you have requested is in TEM, and thus will be in TEM2 (and it took me way more than 2 weeks to do them ).
It won't come in TE4 because it'd be an overkill and come in the way for many players. However, TEM2 matches may be playable, although gameplay may differ from TE4.

And you can check the Character Sheet of a player by clicking his name in his activity screen.

Thanks for the answer, I didn't know about TEM until I registered here, and it sounds like TEM2 could really be my thing. I'm surprised to hear it took you so long to add these, although your game probably has a different structure compared to the games I worked on as a modder (like the Pro Cycling Manager series). On the other hand, I remember building my platformer a few years ago, thinking that I only have a month worth of work left, then spent 2 weeks on trying to fix a save game bug alone... Tried a million different "solutions" that didn't work, than solved the problem in 5 minutes one morning... I also know what it's like when life gets in the way or when you lose motivation once you have nothing left to do, but the most boring, soul-destroying tasks over and over... (My platform game for example had 32 levels, and it was only fun to build the first 6-8, it got super-tedious towards the end.)

Wow, I really didn't know about the character sheet link, thanks for that, will help big time.

Good luck building these games!

[fjaoaoaoao]

There should be some AI simulation of the mental game of tennis, ie players collapsing or rising to the occasion during pressure moments... some players being great frontrunners, etc.

Also, even more variance and variety in AI behavior and shot selection would be nice. I primarily use TE3 for AI simulation so more variety and more personality with mood/mental swings, ebbs and flows, would be fantastic!

[obdz]

I may have said the following before, but here goes.

1- If possible, the outfits should be easier to handle, navigate, store, install, and browse. No more different installations for same (e.g. cuffs) multiple times for different hands and sides. Easier navigation through already installed outfits, by allowing player to store them in folders and browse these folders in-game. For example, Federer outfit for AO 18 is stored in its own folder in-game, so the next time I want this outfit I won't have to search for its parts through 1200 items for each part.

2- New animations, preferably matching that of top real tennis players.

3- In world tour, specific Davis cup courts working. Now, the game chooses random court based on the nationality of the competitor, even though the courts for davis cup are installed and assigned.

4- Top spin shouldn't affect slice. Or at least should be an option.

5- [s]Correct[/s] Updated court speed and bounce parameters.

6- If possible, service should have indicator or something to tell when it is the right time to press.

That's it for now . Thank for your efforts.

EDIT:

7- More stats A specific page in World Tour dedicated to stats like : most consecutive points, most consecutive sets in hard courts...etc. Also the same for in-match. A page for live stats like the ones I've already mentioned.

[JaNeZoKu]

Before I give my feedback, I'd just like to say that this game is already awesome as it is! So, props for that.

What I'd like to see in future instalments is the following:

01) STATS/INFO SCREENS IN WORLD TOUR:

a) I'd love to be able to see injury indicators for CPU players, for example an 'player injured' icon added to world rankings next to the name of the injured player that when you hover over it or click on it shows you when that player got injured and how long is he/she expected to be out. Or, just add one single icon on the world rankings list that you can click on and see the list of all the players currently injured and dates when they got injured and when they're expected to return.
Also, it would be cool if you could see player's age in the world ranking screen and sort the ranking list by player age and position on the ATP/WTA ranking list.

b) Would love to be able to see more detailed stats for CPU players in the menus. For example, on their profile page, what is their highest singles/doubles ranking achieved and the date they achieved it on, list of tournaments won (sortable by date/tournament category...), what were their year-end rankings and so on.
And once you start the match, it would be cool to see stats screens like in real life: list of all the opponents that player beat on road to the current match, time spent on court, last year result at the current tournament, best result at the current tournament and so on. Also tournament stats would be cool: ranking lists showing ace leaders at the current tournament, serve speed leaders, serve percentage leaders, pts won on serve, most winners/errors...

02) PLAYER SKILLS/STYLES:

a) To further make players more realistic, it would be great to separately set up skills such as FH/BH flat shots/spin shots/slice shots, not only how strong, precise and consistent they are, but how often certain type of shot (flat, spin, slice) is used. This way it would be possible to create a more realistic version of a player like Steffi Graf who almost exclusively hit slice off of her BH side, or players like Nadal and Kuznetsova who use lots of top spin on their FH side, but play the BH side much flatter.

b) Similar to the above, I'd love to be able to set how often a player comes to the net (regardless of their playing style). For example, have a defensive player who also comes to the net to finish off the point or have an offensive player who is reluctant to come and play a volley.

03) GENERAL GAMEPLAY/MODDING OPTIONS:

a) The ability to start a season/career mode with one player and then switch to some other player in the same game would be cool. For example, I'd love to be able to play one season as Nadal, another with Federer and then another one with Del Potro while and keeping the history/records.

b) Ability to globally decrease/increase player's skills, especially the mental ones, depending on the surface would be neat. So that for example players like Sampras and Davenport would do well on grass, but not so well on clay. A modifier for playing in front of home crowd would be cool too, some players play better in front of the home crowd, some worse (for example, Mauresmo regularly choked in Roland Garros). Maybe even have the 'favourite tournament' parameter so that players like Sampras, Federer, Graf, Navratilova could do even better in Wimbledon, while Nadal, Kuerten, Henin, Sanchez Vicario could do better at Roland Garros.

c) Completely separate player's doubles and singles ranking in the .ini file, to be able to fine tune each individually.

d) Add a parameter like 'name_change: yes/no -> if yes, set new name and date of name change' would be cool in the .ini files, so that you don't have to create a separate entry/player for players who changed their names during their career. This would be good, because it would keep their tournament history and h2h history. Same thing could be done for the change of country. For example, Monica Seles played for Yugoslavia in the early nineties (prior to stabbing) and won 8 of her 9 grand slams playing for Yugoslavia, and then post-stabbing she won one more slam as a US citizen. So, it'd be cool if you could do the same in the game and keep that player's stats/history when change of country occurs.

e) For a more realistic impression, CPU controlled player should move towards the ball even if it 'knows' that the other player's shot is going to end up in the out or in the net. At the moment, if you hit a shot that is going out (regardless of how close it is) the CPU player doesn't move at all because it knows the shot will be a miss. This would be ok in cases when the miss is huge, but when your shot ends up just millimetres wide it looks silly to see the CPU controlled player not move at all. In real life, players would always move towards the ball (because they don't know for sure whether the shot is going in or out) unless the miss is really huge.

f) The crowd... A parameter like 'crowd favourite' would be cool in the .ini files, so that the crowd cheers stronger for some players than the others. For example, Roger Federer would have this parameter very high as he is highly popular all over the world. Stronger cheering for home players and underdog players would be cool as well.

g) Sliding on clay courts (and other courts too) would be cool to see, maybe even have a player skill for it. For example, Justine Henin was a great natural slider on clay courts, while the Williams sisters, Sharapova and some others weren't nearly as good. This should affect their in-game movement on clay (and/or other surfaces).

h) Hawk eye. This shouldn't be hard to implement (though I'm a programming n00b). A code like 'ball in/out within: 1 cm -> enable line judge error -> chance of line judge making an error = 0.10' seems like a good way to go about it.

i) The ability to customize the return position for each player individually would be cool. So that you can have Nadal standing meters behind the baseline waiting for the serve, and the Williams sisters standing inside the court when returning. Maybe make it adaptable to the opponent's serve skill (better server => more defensive return position; weaker server => more aggressive return position).

j) Human controlled reactions to balls that hit the net and go over need improvement. I'm playing with fast auto-positioning just because of this reason. It's like my player refuses to move when the CPU shot touches the net and goes over, it can be quite annoying. Not sure why it was set up like that, or is it me and I just suck? I'd actually rather play with average or even slow auto-positioning, but this is the only reason why I'm playing with fast auto-positioning and I still struggle with getting to these shots.

k) Ability to edit the full set of player skills in-game while in the World Tour mode would make life much easier, same thing goes for outfits and stroke animations etc. Also, ability to freely edit the skills would be neat (what I mean is to be able to change the power of the shot without its precision being affected).

l) Global skill change during World Tour. What I mean by this is, say you start playing in 1990, as you move towards 2000 and then towards 2010, the global skills (skills of all players) are modified (improved) so that as the time goes on, the game (tennis) evolves as well, it becomes faster, more powerful etc.

[obdz]

Continuing...

8- In world tour, Wimbledon should automatically dress all players white clothes, without turning their hair and skin color white. An idea to implement this, is to make folder specific for Wimbledon outfits in texture and chose unassigned players' outfit from when playing Wimbledon.

9- In world tour, the ability to see CPU players' stats.

10- I hope it will have 2D and 3D just like this version of the game.

[Serena Williams]

1. Add a few more diverse playing styles, to truly represent the state of the style of some players. Also the stats on some of the players really need to be changed. Players like Kerber and Woniacki have almost 100 on both FH and BH, while the reality is quite different. Wozniacki FH is far away from having 100 in power and precission, and Kerbe while does have a lot of consistency and good precission her power on FH and BH is nowhere near 100. Same goes for Wozniakcki's serve, it is nowhere near 100 percent.
2.Clijsters has very inconsistent shots and her game was largely based on consistent countering and looking for the opportunity to finish off the point when the chance arose. Same goes with Kuznetsova. Her FH is her best shot yet in game it is represented as a much more unstable shot.
3. Radwanska is presented as an aggressive puncher which she is not. She hits a flatter ball then that in game and same cases as above- the power of her shots is not near 100. For players like there should be a new playing style- for example ,, Defensive Puncher" or something like that.
4. Henin- although had powerful strokes same case- not near the 100 mark. When u compare these players to the likes of Williams, Kvitova, Davenport not even their average groundstroke speed is near theirs.
5. There should be some parametar that allows players to make errors hitting the net too. Right now it seems rather impossible unless you're reaching a ball and u fall just short.
6, The characteristics of the playing styles should be revised too. A defender should get a few more extra accelerations,same case for Power Baseliner. They loose energy way too fast. A defender can defend longer and implement acouple of faster shots, while a Baseliner can attack relenlesly and get tired once you go keep in the point, not after 2-3 shots.

[obdz]

Continue...

11- In world tour, the ability to set outfit for CPU players for each tournament in each year.

12- In world tour, if the player is playing in a tournament, his abilities do not diminish.

[Algo]

13) Split Slice from Top Spin
14) Add them both to the 780 limit.
15) Make counter ever so slightly less quick in exchange for their virtually unlimited accelerations*
16) Nerf their bonus on on-the-line balls that you hit back with a normal or topspin shot*
17) Make Defender ever so slightly slower in exchange for their extra top spin*
18) Make Volleyer have more speed when moving forward, more net presence and better volley shots*
19) Have Power Baseliners have a buff in power when using acceleration shots, in exchange for an ever so slightly decrease in precision and consistency on normal rally shots.*
*When the stat is on 100% counter and defender will be a bit less quick, volleyers will have more acceleration when moving forward and have better volleys, Power Baseliners shot speed will be faster than the other styles, is what I mean.

[manutoo]

Algo,
13) what is a "Split Slice" ? Google doesn't seem to know.

[JaNeZoKu]

^ I think he meant to split the slice attributes and top spin attributes for forehands/backhands to have separate values.