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Re: Tennis Elbow 2011 v1.0d

Postby Stajus » 12 Apr 2012, 11:24

Florian wrote:That sentence is as smart as saying "tennis would be a fair game if Nadal was able to win all his matches using fed's tactics and game style". I used to play PB 2 years ago, wasn't that bad, but my kind of tactics fit much better to the counter style (even if in 2011 it sometimes felt a bit desperate on newline or clay because i didn't have much chance of winning a few sets except maybe on grass or very fast surfaces, mostly because that movement didn't fit me and fitted players like you and ero better).


This is a game...not real life...A game in which every style doesn't have an equal chance of winning is not fun. The point of this game is, I think, to be as realistic as possible while being as fun as possible? Nadal, Fed, Djoko, Murray have worked VERY hard for what they have...here one update gives or takes everything (don't hallucinate that you improved your movement, you didn't at all compared to the AO version :lol:)...So, if anything can come or go so easily, it should at least give everyone a completely even chance...;)
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2011 v1.0d

Postby Florian » 12 Apr 2012, 11:41

Sure, since the AO version only counters have been noticeably reduced, then explain clearly what changed so much that would have made counters so easy to play...please, do so.

And about the way i can manage to turn rallies my way, well as i already said if that's the case for you vs any counter then i would say ok you can't win most of the long rallies vs any counter, but that's surely not the case. And btw you played counter for a little while, but couldn't use the advantages of it because it's not the way you think and build the points. And let me add a last thing concerning your style on clay, you have 0 counter skill (unlike Stefi and others), and in my opinion that can't be an advantage on boucy surfs, but instead of that your net skills are really good...
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2011 v1.0d

Postby Stajus » 12 Apr 2012, 11:44

Florian wrote:Sure, since the AO version only counters have been noticeably reduced, then explain clearly what changed so much that would have made counters so easy to play...please, do so.

And about the way i can manage to turn rallies my way, well as i already said if that's the case for you vs any counter then i would say ok you can't win most of the long rallies vs any counter, but that's surely not the case. And btw you played counter for a little while, but couldn't use the advantages of it because it's not the way you think and build the points. And let me add a last thing concerning your style on clay, you have 0 counter skill (unlike Stefi and others), and in my opinion that can't be an advantage on boucy surfs, but instead of that your net skills are really good...


It is obvious that movement speed fiddling is a major advantage for counters (as you are able to take the ball earlier without hitting UEs which I've never seen you do with PB + also you have unlimited accels (this one is so ridiculously unfair btw) )...you can do the rest of thinking as you don't seem to even realise that part :fear:

Second paragraph: bs talk again. Why don't you try to play puncher vs puncher if/when puncher is overpowered? It would be far more even as puncher/PB don't have any "magic" skills in this game :annoyed: But I'd probably have the edge...I never said I am as good with counter as you or as good with defender as Voja - I said PB/puncher players have won virtually no big tournaments on the online Tour in the last 3 years...this isn't by accident, it is pretty obvious why this is the case. And why would puncher/PB players need to change to counter/defender regularly just to try to change up something and have a better chance? Lol, obviously someone who played counter/defender for a long time and perfected their "magic" would have the edge...but WHY do these styles always have the edge? Because they're overpowered and the maximum potentials of these styles far outweigh the maximum potential of PB/puncher/varied styles. So simple :whistle:

So, every player that actually wants to WIN Masters/GSs (most are happy to make QF LOL):

Forget PB, puncher, varied....you will never win a big tournament with those styles even if you have a very solid game (the best counters/defenders will neutralise you easily in the SFs/Fs)...change your style if you want to win anything, but it will take you a long time to perfect the new style you choose...so your chances of winning anything other than 250s/500s at this point are zero :D

P.S. It's kinda a pity Mr. Schmith isn't playing anymore...I think he would double bagel a bunch of people at this point whether with counter or defender..and would prove my point a bit better too :mrgreen:
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2011 v1.0d

Postby Florian » 12 Apr 2012, 15:32

Or you can play for fun and not for being no.1...it's like asking Karlovic why he sticks to volleyer though he knows he can't win big titles because there will always be better than him in any draw...but he knows he is good at net + serving well so he sticks to what he does best, period. It's funny to see you writing that TE can't be compared to real tennis but in the mean time you wish PB style would be as good and complete as Djokovic, meaning lots of accels, huge counter skills, great net...
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2011 v1.0d

Postby Stajus » 12 Apr 2012, 16:21

This comment coming from you? lol...After you lost to a volleyer (dr.Ivo) at AO, you kinda left TE for a few weeks and you were going to retire...and now ofc you're here after IW/Miami because your goal is to be No1 (or at least to win big tournies cause Voja is quite far away now :lol:), not to "just have fun" :roll: At least I admit that, for me, it's no fun playing if I don't have a fair chance to win big tournies :whistle: It's called being competitive. If I lose to Stefan 1-6 1-6 for example I won't complain about his PB style as it's totally balanced with what I get from puncher ;)
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2011 v1.0d

Postby Florian » 12 Apr 2012, 16:37

PB and puncher are basically the same, unless you want to reach net every point...
I ll stick to my sentence, I m playing to annoy people and that s enough fun for me ^^
Concerning my loss to Ivo, I'll repeat that counter is probably the worst profile to face a volleyer, so if I can't pass perfectly I m done...
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2011 v1.0d

Postby Stajus » 12 Apr 2012, 19:08

Stajus wrote:After you lost to a volleyer (dr.Ivo) at AO, you kinda left TE for a few weeks and you were going to retire...

Enough said relating to your "goal"...I guess losing to a volleyer wasn't "fun", but winning with an obviously overpowered style is :roll:
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2011 v1.0d

Postby Maxy » 14 Apr 2012, 00:23

Guys, stop fighting, it's pointless...
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2011 v1.0d

Postby manutoo » 14 Apr 2012, 10:26

Stajus,
I watched the .dmos :
2012-04-03.14-32 - Staju vs Voja 2-6 => actually Voja doesn't use too much topspin, it's quite rare that he reaches 50% of the max spin, and he often uses other strikes than the topspin strike (*), so actually, he'd be more underpowered than overpowered ; my guess is that he'd still beat you playing with PB or Puncher after a few matches of adaptation
(*) I watched another .dmo of Ero vs Voja where Voja used topspin more often & with more spin, though.

2012-04-07.23-37 - Flori vs Staju 6-7 ; 2012-04-12.00-23 - Flori vs Staju 6-3 => that you beat Florian while being in good shape, and lost while being tired mainly show that it's balanced more than anything else ; in a general way, Florian positioning is nearly perfect, while yours is still not (I already told you that last year), so if you improve a bit your positioning, you'll likely have more chances to beat him than him to beat you

For the doubles .dmo, having 2 players almost identical makes it very hard to follow who's who and thus trying to make the difference between your errors & your partner's ones gives me headache. :sweat: All I can see is that in the end, you did the same amount of errors & winners than him (ie: 8 & 1).

Eronakold,
2012-04-08.18-44 - Ero&TYN vs dub&Pun 0-6 => I think the one who has the right to blame his partner is your partner, not you... ':D You did 5 faults for 1 winner, while he did 9 faults for 6 winners, that's a total of -4 for you and -3 for him, while Stajus' partner, with the exact same skills did only 2 faults for 8 winners ; I guess it's coz The Punisher's partner didn't disturb his concentration... ;)

Ap500S,
2012-04-11.13-23 - Ap500 vs [.Rog 7-5.dmo => yup, work you positioning, keep nearer of the baseline and/or slightly inside the Danger Zone and you should improve..!


EDIT: Final Note:
having watched all these .dmo's, I'm pretty happy with the improvements since 1 year ; the matches are way more realistic than before, the 1st reason being the No-Input-Lag change in the network code from last December, but also followed by all the little adjustments I did in the past year ; I just need to find an elegant way to greatly encourage pep to prepare their return in the correct position, and we will be (almost) all done..! :yes:
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2011 v1.0d

Postby Alen » 14 Apr 2012, 13:05

manutoo wrote:Ap500S,
2012-04-11.13-23 - Ap500 vs [.Rog 7-5.dmo => yup, work you positioning, keep nearer of the baseline and/or slightly inside the Danger Zone and you should improve..!


Yup you are all right, thanks for watching this video! :jap:
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2011 v1.0d

Postby Stajus » 14 Apr 2012, 16:20

manutoo wrote:Stajus,
I watched the .dmos :[...]



Voja can play whatever he likes and win easily...but with puncher/PB he wouldn't win easily => defender is overpowered...
Florian's movement hasn't changed since 1 year as I play him regularly, and I used to win almost all the time, but I was LOSING to Mr.Schmith who was also a counter...so, it's pretty obvious that the counter is overpowered...And you handicapped the backhand with the last update which also helps counter as they can defend a few more bhs successfully, while puncher/PB then have a higher chance to run out of accelerations...

idk about doubles, my scores are weird, but I played Ivo many times since the update...6-4 6-1 0-6 6-3 6-4 6-3 :blackeye: :lol: The last few sets felt more normal though...anyways the partners are idiots, so you should prepare a 2 vs 2 humans version this year or smthg :unsure:

About realism: Are you serious? :lol: All the players still "camp" crosscourt and use the side to side bonus...the best crosscourt dweller is Florian, it is almost impossible to hit a crosscourt winner against him ;) Yeah, that's so realistic ;) Just a fact that this game is currently nowhere near realistic...sorry...it resembles ping pong (table tennis) more than tennis with the way counter is able to pick up balls early and hit the lines...:mrgreen:
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2011 v1.0d

Postby Maxy » 14 Apr 2012, 17:08

About 2 vs 2 humans, it will be in TE 2014 for sure!! I'm not sure he will do that now..
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2011 v1.0d

Postby manutoo » 15 Apr 2012, 05:43

Stajus,
the thing is 1 year ago I wanted to blow my brains out watching .dmo , and now it's ok ; there's no more "I replace myself on the lane line", and there are a lot of punishment when standing a bit too near of it. In the past, I was seeing some pep running to the right lane after a strike to the right ; didn't see anything like that lately ; in the opposite, I saw some pep going to the left lane a bit too much after a shot to the right, and who were losing the point from their opponent's response to the right. In a general way, I'm not shocked anymore by the positioning ; it may not be 100% perfectly realistic, but we're already in the correct zone for a simulation.
When you don't play, you can see things much better than when you play, so maybe you're not well aware of the evolution, especially coz you play all the time, so little change after little change, it's harder to keep track of the global evolution or even see it.

>> it resembles ping pong (table tennis) more than tennis with the way counter is able to pick up balls early

Actually, Florian hits most of his ball just a tiny bit inside the Danger Zone (likely to avoid the loss of precision if he stands too much in it) ; it's you who hit the ball too late quite often, too far behind.

>> Just a fact that this game is currently nowhere near realistic

u're a bit of a drama queen, aren't you ?
If you were more moderate & accurate in your comments & judgments, it'd be easier for me to follow your reports and make something useful out of them without having to apply some heavy filtering 1st, and you'd be right away more convincing when stating something. (I do read your comments anyway, though ;) )
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2011 v1.0d

Postby Stajus » 15 Apr 2012, 12:18

About the last part - well, you know that my opinion is counter/defender are overpowered so obviously it won't be realistic...and anyway, when it comes to running we all stay in the corners a bit too much for it to be realistic (crosscourt winners are rare, and almost impossible vs some)...The reason I react like that is simply because I hate injustice, just like Didier Drogba (vs Barca in the CL) :whistle:

Btw, it's pretty easy to see when someone's comments make sense...all you need to look at is that bunch of users asking for "challenges"...that topic makes me laugh :blackeye: Perhaps you should explain to these people what programming is :fear:
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2011 v1.0d

Postby Chris Jacob » 15 Apr 2012, 12:56

manutoo wrote:u're a bit of a drama queen, aren't you ?
If you were more moderate & accurate in your comments & judgments, it'd be easier for me to follow your reports and make something useful out of them without having to apply some heavy filtering 1st, and you'd be right away more convincing when stating something. (I do read your comments anyway, though ;) )


Manutoo is angry a little bit :D i can understand him....
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