Mana Games

[squeakybum]

squeakybum,
you'll see how fast your service is when the ball leaves your racket, no ? (like in real life, less the vibration feeling in the hand)

I understand what you’re saying and I don’t think we should be able to precisely decide our power without penalty but a tennis player roughly has a ballpark idea of how fast the serve they went for is. Under the current mechanism we have no clue until after we look at the serve speed board for any accel serve we hit. All we can control is the maximum possible speed. However there is too much variation on the serve speeds over which we have no control over, which can be an issue tactically. Only 3 different speed ranges of serve (safe, normal, accel) whereas in reality you may have up to 6 speed ranges in your arsenal that you control and predetermine.

[knich]

Ultimate tennis statistics has serve speed data, for many players, and it’s true their average speed is considerably lower from their max e.g.https://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/playerProfile?playerId=4544&tab=statistics. But it would be better to know roughly what speed our serve is at the moment of execution while maintaining such percentages overall by means of the mechanism and the stats.

I stand corrected.

[knich]

This is incorrect. If you tap the button it doesn't register the input and plays an "autoserve" which is slow. Holding the input throughout the motion or just at the end of the motion, has 0 influence on serve speed. You can test this by going into serve practice mode and hitting 10 of the exact same serve. the speed varies greatly, and it is entirely RNG influencing the speed of the serve that you chose (accel flat for example).

Yes but my point is unless you hold the input throughout the motion, you will NEVER get a max speed serve. You might get like 80% max serve. The only chance of max speed serve is holding throughout the motion.

[KINGBARBOZA]

Yes but my point is unless you hold the input throughout the motion, you will NEVER get a max speed serve. You might get like 80% max serve. The only chance of max speed serve is holding throughout the motion.

In TE4 you should be holding through the motion for every single serve. Otherwise the lack of speed is due to it not reading your input

[knich]

In TE4 you should be holding through the motion for every single serve. Otherwise the lack of speed is due to it not reading your input

Correct...but that was not my point.

[KINGBARBOZA]

your point is that because we can hit no input auto serves it means that the server has control over serve speed?

[manutoo]

KINGBARBOZA & squeakybum,
I gave it some thought and actually I never ever heard a tennis commentator (which often are former pro players) saying a server should go for a "strong serve" against a breakpoint, or anything of the sort ; they often say "it's time for a good 1st ball", which usually means that first it should be in, and then it should be well placed. I also never ever read or noticed something going in that direction.
The only thing I can think of is that a great server would tune his serve's topspin amount to modulate the speed, depending on his current goal ; but in terms of energy, he'd still put more or less the same amount into the ball.

Again if you have any source that shines a new light on this, I'll study it.

[knich]

your point is that because we can hit no input auto serves it means that the server has control over serve speed?

No I did not say the server has "control" over the serve speed. I was simply saying unless you keep button pressed throughout the serve you have no chance of dice roll of max serve speed for that HUM player.

[knich]

KINGBARBOZA & squeakybum,
I gave it some thought and actually I never ever heard a tennis commentator (which often are former pro players) saying a server should go for a "strong serve" against a breakpoint, or anything of the sort ; they often say "it's time for a good 1st ball", which usually means that first it should be in, and then it should be well placed. I also never ever read or noticed something going in that direction.
The only thing I can think of is that a great server would tune his serve's topspin amount to modulate the speed, depending on his current goal ; but in terms of energy, he'd still put more or less the same amount into the ball.

Again if you have any source that shines a new light on this, I'll study it.

The commentators may not say it but if you've got a 140+mph serve you are going for it against a breakpoint. You are hoping for an ACE not just to place well the serve.

[KINGBARBOZA]

I think players have way more control over serve speed than you think. For example, it's an exho, but Agassi asked Federer exactly what speed he should serve and got within 1mph range of that serve. Saying massive servers like Kyrgios, Opelka, Isner or Karlovic don't have any choice/control over whether they hit a 190 KM/h 1st serve of 220 KM/h is entirely wrong.

[squeakybum]

KINGBARBOZA & squeakybum,
I gave it some thought and actually I never ever heard a tennis commentator (which often are former pro players) saying a server should go for a "strong serve" against a breakpoint, or anything of the sort ; they often say "it's time for a good 1st ball", which usually means that first it should be in, and then it should be well placed. I also never ever read or noticed something going in that direction.
The only thing I can think of is that a great server would tune his serve's topspin amount to modulate the speed, depending on his current goal ; but in terms of energy, he'd still put more or less the same amount into the ball.

Again if you have any source that shines a new light on this, I'll study it.

If servers can hit second serves and off-pace serves, then they can hit fast serves because they control its speed. If we currently have three speed ranges of serve, then it implies we can have more and have some measure of control on how fast the serve we deliver is. Obviously they cant predict how fast their serve will be but they know their limits and, as you say, how to generate different ranges of speed on their ball. On break point they're generally going for the fastest and closest to the line serve they have. Most players do not serve like Rafa on break point just trying to put the ball in, they are aiming to ace, in fact on almost all serves they try and go for their maximum potency serve, whereas he is aiming to create a specific kind of return most of the time he serves and acing is a bonus, which is a major reason why he is one of the all time leaders in first serve percentage. In the current system the speed you get for any serve is random and independent of the execution of the serve.

[manutoo]

KINGBARBOZA,
Give me sourced facts, interviews, stats, etc., and I'll check them.
You could start by giving me the link to that exhibition match with the timestamp.

squeakybum,
the question is not if the tennis players can serve slower on their 2nd serve, but if their fastest serves at 205km/h when their average serve speed is 185km/h is from a decision or a better execution than usual. Or in other words, can they decide to serve ~15km/h faster than usual.

The 2nd serve is like a different type of strike than the 1st serve, and usually, the spin is quite different. ie: the players have 2 different muscle memories for 1st & 2nd serves. In other words, the 2nd serve is not a modulated 1st serve with a slower speed.

[KINGBARBOZA]

KINGBARBOZA,
Give me sourced facts, interviews, stats, etc., and I'll check them.
You could start by giving me the link to that exhibition match with the timestamp.

squeakybum,
the question is not if the tennis players can serve slower on their 2nd serve, but if their fastest serves at 205km/h when their average serve speed is 185km/h is from a decision or a better execution than usual. Or in other words, can they decide to serve ~15km/h faster than usual.

The 2nd serve is like a different type of strike than the 1st serve, and usually, the spin is quite different. ie: the players have 2 different muscle memories for 1st & 2nd serves. In other words, the 2nd serve is not a modulated 1st serve with a slower speed.

sorry for the bad quality clip, but here is the exho I was referring to. Also, the serve is not that different from other strokes. Players like Gonzales and Del Potro know when to flatten out and just blast a forehand as hard as they can at huge speeds. It's the same for big servers, obviously they don't serve flat out all the time, varying placement, speed, and spin but sometimes, for example, Kyrgios, when he goes big on 2nd, serves always annihilates the ball flat at 210km/h+.

[squeakybum]

KINGBARBOZA,
Give me sourced facts, interviews, stats, etc., and I'll check them.
You could start by giving me the link to that exhibition match with the timestamp.

squeakybum,
the question is not if the tennis players can serve slower on their 2nd serve, but if their fastest serves at 205km/h when their average serve speed is 185km/h is from a decision or a better execution than usual. Or in other words, can they decide to serve ~15km/h faster than usual.

The 2nd serve is like a different type of strike than the 1st serve, and usually, the spin is quite different. ie: the players have 2 different muscle memories for 1st & 2nd serves. In other words, the 2nd serve is not a modulated 1st serve with a slower speed.

Research suggests that serve speed is influenced by kinesiological factors which generates the power which is transmitted to the ball (and to some degree a combination of your upper and lower body brute strength), the toss, the timing of the serve (sweet spot) and it is most highly correlated with height. We currently cannot impact serve speed via the service motion and the only way we make a tall player hit faster serves is by adding high serve speed to the character. It is probably due to better execution that they hit their fastest serves, but it is a conscious decision by the player on many serves or on big points to hit your fastest. Thus I think there could be a mechanism such that we can try and hit our fastest serves but we are prevented from executing them often. The problem now is that our execution has no impact on the speed, which is disarming for the player.

Here are some sources:
https://www.wired.com/story/how-elite-t ... t-150-mph/
https://www.mattspoint.com/blog/serve-speed-key-factors
https://toomanyrackets.com/average-serv ... in-tennis/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24998615/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29965792/
http://tennisinstruction.com/tennis-serve-speed/
http://tennisinstruction.com/increase-t ... rve-speed/

[manutoo]

KINGBARBOZA,
thanks for the video ; it's a funny moment.
I'm not sure it means a lot though, especially as it might be around his average serve speed.

Anyway, I'm going to try to reformulate the question here : if the players can serve faster on demand, why don't they always serve faster ? If it's coz it lowers their 1st serve in percentage, why would they serve faster on break-points, as the most important things on a break-point is to put the 1st serve in ? (according to former tennis pro commentators, and myself ) (of course, it should still be fast like any 1st serve)

A quick Google search for "tennis how to modulate your serve speed" shows only links for serving faster, not a bit slower than your max : https://www.google.com/search?q=tennis+ ... erve+speed ...

squeakybum,
I did a quick check & your links show & explain why different players serve at different speeds, but not why the same player serves at different speeds.

I already explained why there's no execution (except the left/right aiming) on our side in TE : I never saw a mechanism in-game that felt at least a bit like serving for real. A total RNG is still closer to the real feeling than everything I have experienced in other games. I have an idea for a new mechanism that I'm going to try in the incoming months : on paper, it sounds much much closer to the tennis spirit, but I'm afraid in real it'll be clunky and/or too obscure to understand...