Mana Games

[knich]

My biggest problem with the current service system is that there are sometimes huge differences between my first serve. As noted, I can hit at times a serve at 140 mph and other times only 120 mph with 99serve power. There shouldn’t be that much of a gap in your first serve speed. I also found that the CPU players do not consistently serve at higher speeds. They should consistently serve at a higher speed if they’re serve power is in the high 90s. But often times they are only serving like 110 mph.

[manutoo]

Hello,

if you check carefully the serve stats of real matches, you'll see that the fastest serve is most of the time very significantly faster than the average serve speed ; even taking into account that a few serves are sliced, it shows that the serve speed isn't stable. If you played real tennis at a decent level, it's something you might have experienced 1st hand as well.

So if you check the in-game serve stats, you'll see they are close enough to the real stuff and thus it's realistic enough.

There's one element that may not be taken into account in the game though : sometimes, the player might really mean to hit stronger ; although I'm not sure about this one, as my real skill level was not high enough to judge that aspect 1st-hand, and I never heard any explanation related to that topic.

[KINGBARBOZA]

I think the player should have a bit more control of this. For example, having the choice to absolutely bomb down serves as hard as u can with the cost of accuracy/consistency. I guess the power gauge would add more granular control of serve speed which would improve this aspect of serving.

[squeakybum]

Yes an Isner type of player should be able to go for his 145 mph serve when he wants to, and not based on an algorithm, but while maintaining the fact as you say that even the big servers do not have an average speed close to what their top speed is. I think serve stats-derived rng, can still work in tandem with a power gauge or anything related to timing and achieve this. It’s frustrating to try and hit a fast serve and just smoke, so to speak, comes out sometimes.

[noys390]

I guess an invisible power gauge is present. The more you press & hold the more powered the serves are. The max speed of the serves is based on that player's service skill. Everything is there, you can play like Isner. What's the problem ?

[squeakybum]

I guess an invisible power gauge is present. The more you press & hold the more powered the serves are. The max speed of the serves is based on that player's service skill. Everything is there, you can play like Isner. What's the problem ?

The max speed of the serves is based on the player's skill but it varies and as far as I understand how long you press the button does not influence serve speed, you just hold for the duration of the service event to execute the serve, then you aim and stats define what happens.

[KINGBARBOZA]

I guess an invisible power gauge is present. The more you press & hold the more powered the serves are. The max speed of the serves is based on that player's service skill. Everything is there, you can play like Isner. What's the problem ?

There is no "invisible power guage" or does it have anything to do with how long you hold. Max serve speed is based on stats I would assume. The problem is that within an accel flat serve for example, the serve can vary +-30km/h speed for no reason. It is 100% RNG and outside player control whether or not they hit a fast or slow serve. The parameters are far too wide and the player should have control over serve power, not relying on rng/luck to determine if they hit an ace/good serve or not.

[squeakybum]

Yes an Isner type of player should be able to go for his 145 mph serve when he wants to, and not based on an algorithm, but while maintaining the fact as you say that even the big servers do not have an average speed close to what their top speed is. I think serve stats-derived rng, can still work in tandem with a power gauge or anything related to timing and achieve this. It’s frustrating to try and hit a fast serve and just smoke, so to speak, comes out sometimes.

If for example the stats defined the range of speeds a server could hit for their serves, within a gauge there could be a marker which moves up and down and you time the serve event to be executed at a point during the power charging event to create realistic serve speed distributions. There could also be 3 zones within the gauge to describe a safe, off-pace (normal) or fast serve with this marker moving through the zones at a given speed. Thus it would be more difficult to hit the max speed every time you serve but you would know from the gauge what speed you are hitting your serve. Then the stats would then define how often such a serve lands in the court, and in general the faster your serves are the less likely you will have the consistency to match it and maintain as high serve percentage. Also you would still have to aim. This could be a way to incorporate rng and a risk/reward dynamic, to replicate real serving data, and prevent players from mastering the mechanic without penalty, while still giving them control over the serve.

[knich]

The max speed of the serves is based on the player's skill but it varies and as far as I understand how long you press the button does not influence serve speed, you just hold for the duration of the service event to execute the serve, then you aim and stats define what happens.

I think holding the button influences in part the serve speed. If you tap the button, you won't serve 145mph even if your serve power is 100%. So, the serve speed is dependent on you fully holding the button and timing the release. The actual speed is role playing.

[knich]

Hello,

if you check carefully the serve stats of real matches, you'll see that the fastest serve is most of the time very significantly faster than the average serve speed ; even taking into account that a few serves are sliced, it shows that the serve speed isn't stable. If you played real tennis at a decent level, it's something you might have experienced 1st hand as well.

So if you check the in-game serve stats, you'll see they are close enough to the real stuff and thus it's realistic enough.

There's one element that may not be taken into account in the game though : sometimes, the player might really mean to hit stronger ; although I'm not sure about this one, as my real skill level was not high enough to judge that aspect 1st-hand, and I never heard any explanation related to that topic.

I think 20 mph difference is too great.

[KINGBARBOZA]

I think holding the button influences in part the serve speed. If you tap the button, you won't serve 145mph even if your serve power is 100%. So, the serve speed is dependent on you fully holding the button and timing the release. The actual speed is role playing.

This is incorrect. If you tap the button it doesn't register the input and plays an "autoserve" which is slow. Holding the input throughout the motion or just at the end of the motion, has 0 influence on serve speed. You can test this by going into serve practice mode and hitting 10 of the exact same serve. the speed varies greatly, and it is entirely RNG influencing the speed of the serve that you chose (accel flat for example).

[manutoo]

noys390,
as stated by KINGBARBOZA, there's indeed no invisible power gauge or anything else ; the service is explained in the doc : https://www.managames.com/tennis/doc/Te ... ml#serving & https://www.managames.com/tennis/doc/Te ... ml#service .

About the service speed spread,
to design it, I checked the service speed stats from several matches. The spread in TE4 is -3.3%/+10% around the average speed, and it's actually a bit lower (*) than in real life for 2 reasons :
- sometimes the real players do slice serves, whose speed is slower and thus make the average lower
- IRL, the fastest serves are probably often "anomalies"
From my personal experience playing tennis (my fastest serve ever was likely around 165~170km/h), there's very little wanted speed modulation : it's mostly the success of the technical execution that determines how fast the ball goes. In other words, forcing might result in a slower serve.
If you have hard data, or professional player testimonies that go against that or provide other perspectives, I'd really like to see them though.

(*) : Djokovic usually has a spread a bit lower than +10% between his average speed & fastest serve, so it's not true for all players ; it's an average for several players.

[squeakybum]

Ultimate tennis statistics has serve speed data, for many players, and it’s true their average speed is considerably lower from their max e.g.https://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/playerProfile?playerId=4544&tab=statistics. But it would be better to know roughly what speed our serve is at the moment of execution while maintaining such percentages overall by means of the mechanism and the stats.

[manutoo]

squeakybum,
you'll see how fast your service is when the ball leaves your racket, no ? (like in real life, less the vibration feeling in the hand)

[KINGBARBOZA]

About the service speed spread, [...]

Don't you think that big servers such as Opelka, Kyrgios, and Isner can choose when they want to really bomb a flat serve over 210km/h? I think they clearly choose when they serve full throttle vs maybe 80-90% power. For example sometimes on 2nd service Kyrgios likes to really go for a massive serve and they are all 210+ km/h.