We need more Power - review on current state of TE Online...

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We need more Power - review on current state of TE Online...

Postby Blacky » 13 Jul 2015, 00:41

As I finally fixed my connection...finally found a port that works...I started playing a bit online...before that I was practicing against verious incredible difficulty AI...and I have some feedback...that might or might not be interesting to you Manutoo :D

First...we need more power man...it's unbalanced

Puncher and Power Baseliners, in terms of pure power, are completely inferior to other types. Of course they can be played on various way, but in terms on what they really represent, and those are strong powerful players that live out of winners, are quite useless.

There are few reasons for it...and there is a suggestion that can help...

1. Tiredness

I think its enough that PB/P (Power Baseliners / Punchers ... for future reference) have limited accelerations, but they are also extremely limited by Tiredness. Let's be fair, you want realistic game, and in that game players should not get tired for next 2-3-4 points because they had one long rally, biggest problem is that they are getting tired mostly from making strong shots.

In that terms, player like Wawrinka, Federer, Tsonga, Del Potro, wouldn't finish half of their matches :D And from personal experince, Im for their terms, absolutely weak physicaly, but I can bash ball relentlesly and endlesly, it doesn't take almost any strengh or stamina from me...

How to give PB/P some breathing space...

Well, as I already said they are limited by stamina and tirednes at the same time, specially in Realistic mode, which limits them even more...you should just edit tiredness and remove or significantly lower penalty effect that they get when making accelerations. After all, they are all strong players with maxed stamina, they can punch ball non stop...


2. Defenders seem OP (Overpowered)

And I don't mean here every defender, I mean best Online players that are playing that stlye, won't be able to conceade a winner. I guarantee you, and I still haven't watched any match dmo from top plyers, that they are playing endless points very often. Specially defender vs. defender. My pure guess is that Voja and Mohamed are defenders, they were 5 years ago when I played them :D

Of course, they will also use net, when opponent is late on ball and stuff, thats how elites play, but their whole game is based on not being able to concead a winner. Once you reach that level of movement, everything else is easy.

But I don't think that problem is speed, speed seems fine, its just ineffectivnes of acceleration. I mean you can mix it up, with short, longs, slices, doesn't really matter. You'll win point here and there, but those are things that defenders can easily adapt.

Biggest reason for effectivnes of defenders is lack of power in acceleration shot, and even more, lack of accelerations itself, as they are so limited, they cant tie up shots together.

Yes I was puncher when I played, and I was bashing my opponents as crazy, but thats not the reason why Im saying this, its just that game is very unbalanced.
I order for player to finish up a point, almost always they have to come to the net...and Im speaking about matches between top tier players.

Where I come to my 3rd point.


3. Volleyers are waay to agile

I was playing volleyer today, 4-5 matches, I have never every played volleyer before, and Im barely getting passed or missing vollies. I do agree with their jumps, they are fine, however, their ability to slow down and control shots taht are coming to them is way too good.

I succeed at all that with only 35 points invested in my forehand and backhand volley, and I was thinking of lowering it to 20 (im playing as volleyer). I think that you should make good vollies to cost alot more points. Because guarding net with 30 points like a god, is way too easy.
I can only imagine how impossible is too pass more experienced volleyer than myself.

Also running back on lobs is also too easy, while their smashs are too weak (i do have 60 in them, maybe thats why), however I feel I dont need much more, in a matter of fact, less seems favorable


4. Serves

We do serve 220, that fine, Im not sure, since 2010 when I was last active on tourns, have you made any like, estetical changes to speed of the serves and other points?
Why am I asking?

Well, I do feel that with serves on 100, you can definetly serve faster, but it is so inconsistent that you server vary between 190kmh and 227kmh (fastest I saw yet). I do understand that there is a moment in serve where you need to hit in order for ball to go faster, but that very hard to control, but its fine. However, even if you hit 227 on line, your opponents, specially experienced ones, will catch your serve with ease and return it deep. Because as faster as serve goes, the deeper return will be.

And I do understand that some players wont return well, I was one of those before and still am, and Im barely conceading any aces with such high speeds. Not jus that, but even I now can return extremely well with slice parallel. I mean I needed only 3 matches to figure out that slice paralel is absolutley best defending return there is...it goes extremely high and deep, giving you huge amount of time to get ready for next shot (my only problem is I suck at rallies atm)...


Conclusion

My biggest issue is with lack of speed at accelerations or at least lack of accelerations due to extremely punishing tiredness toward punchers and power baseliners. I remember in that era of bashers vs defenders, even then accelerations where saved during rallies like a gold for right moments, and rallies where 20+ every other point.

Here I get 1 moment to make acceleration, two shots later, in the middle of point set up, Im out of them, and I have no option but to play endless point or take huge risk and go to net. Once there, you're almost unbeatable...defenders probably can catch all vollies anyway :D
Rank: 2008 (5), 2009 (16), 2010 (6)

Results 2010: Singles (70-27), Doubles (56-19)

Titles 2010: Davis Cup, Valencia (s), Eastbourne (d), Zagreb (d), Paris (d)
Final 2010: 10 (US Open (s), Wimbledon (d), Madrid (d), WTF London (d)...)
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Re: We need more Power - review on current state of TE Onlin

Postby manutoo » 13 Jul 2015, 05:07

Hello

1. => topic15-19405.php

2. You just came back, so I guess you just started to play with Elite controls online ; I think you can't ask to beat the best online defenders right away. Did you master the short acceleration already ?

3. I got lately several complaints about volleying being too hard, so I guess it's not too easy. The passer has to use the short strike or acceleration to put the volleyer in difficulty.

4. Serve speed is fully random ; if you stand very far of the baseline, it's relatively easy to catch all serves, but it makes possible for your opponent to serve & volley
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Re: We need more Power - review on current state of TE Onlin

Postby Blacky » 13 Jul 2015, 14:00

manutoo wrote:Hello

1. => topic15-19405.php

2. You just came back, so I guess you just started to play with Elite controls online ; I think you can't ask to beat the best online defenders right away. Did you master the short acceleration already ?

3. I got lately several complaints about volleying being too hard, so I guess it's not too easy. The passer has to use the short strike or acceleration to put the volleyer in difficulty.

4. Serve speed is fully random ; if you stand very far of the baseline, it's relatively easy to catch all serves, but it makes possible for your opponent to serve & volley



Hmmm, oh man if I start following your links from topic to topic, it will be a long read :D
I think that this guy has very fair points...


There is a corelation between stamina, tirednes, realistic mode and acelerations. Speed and quality as you pointed out can vary, im fine with that, also timing can be even more punishing, but mostly there are lack of accelerations.

But thank you, for making me checking things, now I figure out that 75-99 is 4 accelerations, I was convinced it was it was different (as it was before)...this will save me some points. I was using 84%, which would be about 80% after calculations, now I see I can actuall put 75% and save 9%

However, I don't think thats also that good, there should be some reward for ones that have 100% stamina :)

Also I do feel still that there is same problem...let's see...you get 4 accelerations out of stamina and realistic mode...as best possible option. Punchers and Power Baseliners get few more...maximally 7 for PB in best possible conditions (no tiredness)

It's hard to explain this properly, I but can envision it really easy, as in my time I was extremely well in defending. There were only 1-2 players that were better defenders when I was on top form...so I do know what Im talking about :)

It just, acelerations, do not do enough damage to opponents. The deeper it goes, against these defenders, the deeper return, spin, slice, will you get back, which completely RESETS the point, and you have 1 acceleration less.

So for example, if defender knows how he can make deep defending shot, and better ones all do, he will wait until you do 3-4 accelerations, run them down with ease, and 5th accel he will return really deep...this will reset he point completely. And you will be out of accelerations.
Leaving you with a who choices:

a) save your acceleration for only big chances, thus playing extremely long points...longer points mean more tiredness in latter points, meaning less accelerations, meaning longer points, meaning 0 threat for defenders of conceading a winner

b) Going all out attacking, which is basically exactly what they want you to do...type of game where you defeat yourself...you will also get more tired in latter points, meaning less accelerations, meaning longer points...you get the picture

Sometimes, you won't even be able to do 4 accelerations as your tiredness will get involed. Acelerations are already inconsistent, they don't need to be cut down by tiredness also.

Solution is...give accelerations more power or make more of them possible to do...or make more punishing both positioning when making and positioning when receiving accelerations on baseline...
All in all, they are not working as intended, I guarantee you. To good defender, you won't make a winner, unless he makes movement error...



3. Volley

Serving and Volleying is hard...I agree...because its hard to get on the net in time to cover it from receiving shot. Which is ok, serving and volleying in real life is anything but easy.

But Vollies themselves when positioned on the net, are really easy. And you become almost inpenetrable wall. Baseliners need to make perfect shot in order to pass volleyers, specially great volleyers, but are very limited by inconsitencies that they get from positioning and accelerations.

Ill admit, I never had too much imagination on how to pass volleyer in TE, even in TE 2011, 2009 and 2006. I had huge problems with that, but I dont think anyone can pass good volleyer on the net in TE, once they get positioned. They just cover too much net and oncoming shots are too inconsistent on speed and lenght.
I did try to mix it up, with body shots, short shots, acelerations, lobs, drop shots, good volleyer will catch 95% of them...and won't be able to smash lobs into winners as defenders will catch smashs :D


4. Serve

Maybe, I havent playing against S&V yet...but I do see that the faster the serve goes, to more fked up returns will you get...thus I don't see the point into investing 100% in the serves, as I will mostly backfire...even if Im playing S&V

So instead of 100% in serve giving you an edge, do to huge inconsitency at serve speeds, you are actually better off having serves at 80% and invest that epic amount of points into other skills...
You don't get rewarded enough for having 100% in serve...

That also is probably good for S&V, the slower the serve the more time you have to get onto the net.
I remember when I was playing doubles before, I had 0 in serves, I was serving 50mph curved shots, in time that ball reached opponent I was already positinoned on the net 8-)
If I would try, would I succeed in that now in singles?

Thus S&V, is not working properly with 100% serves as they dont do enough damage to opponents same as accelerations.


So I guess conclusion is...

Speed shots, like serves and accelerations, are too easy to handle for most players, specially experienced ones, and specially if they are defenders or counters...You need to balance it somehow or defenders will rule the game completely...

I mean, defenders can say, we do attack and stuff like that, but thats just missing the point. I remember my style, my style was defending non stop with deeper shots, it was all about defending, no matter how later I was on the ball, if get to it, your chances of making a winner in next shot were almost 0, until opponents make shorter, weaker or not well placed ball...then I would go all out attack on him countering and taking initiative in split second and winning point...and was playing as Power Baseliner
Only 1-2 players were able to defended from it, Mr.Schmit being best at it....

Now, thats even easier to do, all they need to do now, is instead of bashing out opponents in those situations, is go onto a net, and finish up a point. And as they are inpenetrable at the net, there is absolutely 0 risk into their game...

Its like watching Murray playing with Federer vollies :D





Thats the problem, thus you can't finish up a point at all with speed shots, only by going onto net, thus points are getting extremely long. + Vollies are way to strong once onto a net, as they can absorb any kind of shots, strong, weak, lob, drop shot...etc...with perfect consistency on the net

Yes, weaker volleyers/newer players might have some problems, but If Im playing volley every day for the next month, do you really think that I won't thave solution for absolutely every single shot that opponent can throw to me?

Same goes with defenders, they all have patterns that they play with, best ones know what do to in every single situation, there is absolutely no way to hit a winner in today's TE from baseline to a good defender without defender himself making a movement error or making really really bad shot



PS.
When Im talking about this, Im not talking about current state of my game, but end game that I see is happening and gonna happen, as I do have a lot of experience in this.

I don't to beat anyone immediately of course, but I do need to develop my game play, and as I have exprience in it, I see possible ways of developing it and I see what is standing in my way of achieving it.

Im not trying to make you change the rules of the game for me, but Im merely pointing out in things that I see right now that are unrealistic, that can be balanced better.

My game, I want it to be attacking one, but its absoultely impossible to play like that without going onto the net. Power Baseliners and Puncher are absolutely inferior to other types, unless you make hybrids of them, and learn to counter their flaws with absolutely perfect executions in points for only 3 acceleration in return, which is again not what they should represent...

And those accels can be cut short easy buy other types, specially defenders, leaving you with type of player that doesn't really give you any edge over other types...


If you want balance, you need to give accelerations boost, on some way...
Rank: 2008 (5), 2009 (16), 2010 (6)

Results 2010: Singles (70-27), Doubles (56-19)

Titles 2010: Davis Cup, Valencia (s), Eastbourne (d), Zagreb (d), Paris (d)
Final 2010: 10 (US Open (s), Wimbledon (d), Madrid (d), WTF London (d)...)
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Re: We need more Power - review on current state of TE Onlin

Postby manutoo » 14 Jul 2015, 05:46

1) you don't understand how the game works.
With tiredness off, it's almost correct, except it didn't work by step like that, because the extra % above a step were useful to make a better "1st tired acceleration". ie: 74% gave you 3 full accelerations, and the 1st tired one was almost identical to a full one with only a minimal penalty. And 50% also gave 3 full accelerations, but the 1st tired one already had a very significant penalty (although it was still better than a normal strike, IIRC).

And so with tiredness on, it completely changed. 100% of stamina (with 100% of power) = 20 accelerations ; 0% = 8.75 . So 90% of the Realistic mode = 18.875 ; + 3 for PB = 21.875 .
That's the base theory. Now if in the rallies, you manage to rest a bit between each strike when your Instant Energy (IE) is under 22%, then you'll get back enough IE to do a new full acceleration every 4 or 5 strikes, whatever the length of the rallies is => you have infinite accelerations ! :blackeye:
Tiredness pops up when you have less than 20% of IE left. The lower under 20%, the bigger the effect. Acceleration speed is a bit affected by the tiredness ; its precision is a lot more. Running speed is affected a lot by the tiredness.
So if you don't move as a PB with 100% in Stamina in Realistic Mode starting with 100% IE, you can do 17.5 accelerations before starting getting tired. That's a lot more than before.

Also, lowering your stamina means running will get more tiring, so you're really asking for problem and won't be able to both run a lot & attack ; so if you want to do that, the strict minimum is 90% in Stamina.

3) post .dmo of too strong volleyer, if you have some (with detailing what points that show best the issue)

4) even IRL, a slightly slower sliced serve is better to S&V than a powerful flat serve because it gives you more time to reach the net ; it's same in TE

5) PBs get the best shoulder acceleration which let them do very fast accel against top spinners on medium & slow surfaces (up to 160km/h in Realistic mode) ; that's already a lot of boost...

You can post .Dmo showing accelerations that you think should have lead to a clear winner but didn't (with detailing what points to watch)
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Re: We need more Power - review on current state of TE Onlin

Postby Blacky » 14 Jul 2015, 06:20

1. But you are missing the point...all that works in theory, it doesn't in practice, maybe in first point of the match, or the game, not in the rest of the points...unless you are not playing each point to win it, or in other words 100%

In order to pass defender, you have to tie several acceleration shots, you will never pass defender with 1 acceleration shot, nor with 3 or 4, specially not when you get deep shots in return, so as soon as your tiredness drop down and it will very quickly, you are extremely limited player...even if your stamina is 100..
We both understand that hitting 20 accelerations in one point equally possible as winning a lottery :wink:

So first point of the match is like 30 rallies...what happens in 2nd point, how are you gonna win that one as PB or even worse as P?


3. Maybe in future, didn't record any of matches yesterday

4. I don't have problems with Serve and Volley, Im just giving you warning that it might happen that people start having 0% in service power and rush the net...that was happening in TE 2006, I don't think you want that here too...

5. Thats good thing, still, those shots are hard to control and place properly, penalties on them are big, and even if you hit right, very high probability is that defenders will catch it due to nature of defenders movement...


I think, that best solution, for Serve and for Accelerations would be making a small boost on speed of those shots and/or penalties on receiver of those shots, making them harder to return them, and harder to control them. Or make a court smaller few cms :D :whistle:
At the moment, it is harder to control weaker shots from baseline and mid court than accelerations, at least for me (iam used to play against bashers every day, maybe thats why) :)

When I get something usefull, I will send you...I'm also uploading match of TE 2011 AQ Quarterfinals right now on youtube, it is between 2 bashers, maybe you can pick something up from it when uploading finishes (in 2 hours apporx + processing of few hours for HD quality). It will be on this link
http://youtu.be/Wmf6DxIEksQ
Rank: 2008 (5), 2009 (16), 2010 (6)

Results 2010: Singles (70-27), Doubles (56-19)

Titles 2010: Davis Cup, Valencia (s), Eastbourne (d), Zagreb (d), Paris (d)
Final 2010: 10 (US Open (s), Wimbledon (d), Madrid (d), WTF London (d)...)
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Re: We need more Power - review on current state of TE Onlin

Postby manutoo » 15 Jul 2015, 05:01

1) With Elite controls, you'll have a problem to reach an average of 30 strikes per points... :blackeye:
But it's sure, you can't do (almost) only accelerations like it was in the past, now you have to build your point more, and be very good on up/down positioning to take advantage of the short balls of your opponent.

4) it has already happened & already has been fixed a long time ago

6) I watched the Youtube video, and I'm glad the game isn't like that anymore..! :yes:
This was an awful way of playing that was made possible by the input lag & the anti-lag stuff I had created especially for the online mode, plus the fact that most of you were playing with 117ms Delay whatever the ping was.
Since I created the prediction engine and you can move without any input lag, the online game got much closer of the offline one, and it's a good thing..!
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Re: We need more Power - review on current state of TE Onlin

Postby Blacky » 15 Jul 2015, 05:47

1. I am playing with Elite controls, they don't bother me, I mean, after a while everyone get use to them. So its becomes normal...also question is what kind of player will have problems reaching 30 shots in game? Ceartinly not defenders, but attackers :wink: (unless they start playing passive, which defeats the purpose)
Which is exactly what Im talking about, defenders rule over other baseline types easily...
- first they dont care how long point is, tirednes doesn't bother them that much
- second they dont need to worry about accelerations
- third they do less unforced errors due to spin
- fourth considering stats they have, they can invest quite a lot into vollies, and thus be very strong on the net also


I never said I want to hit acceleration after acceleration, but you can't build a point against great movers, cause they can return anything you throw at them and reset anything you built with one deep shot (also there were extreme point buildings even in my video, it only looks like there isn't to untrained eye :D...they are patterns in each point, resseting over and over again during a point, until at one moment they succeed)
...you can see by the video that I have no problems with long points, however, as much as I agree with you that this version is unbelivable more realistic than one from the video, I still do think that accelerations now, don't do any damage to better online players and are making PBs and Ps inferior...

top online player vs. top AI player in WT are uncomparable...I defeated Incredible (6) AI after few games...


You can quite me down, if you tell me how many of top 10 players now in Online TE Tour are PBs or Ps?

I do think that PBs and Ps need some boost on their accelerations otherwise they are not competitive...more control or more speed, something, anything :D...



2. 100 points in Serves and 100 in vollies doesn't really give you an advantage over opponents that have 80 in serves or 30 in vollies...by this I dont mean in S&V, but purely each skill.

There is really no sense for a player to place 100 in serves or 100 in vollies, when he can have almost identically effective serves or vollies with lower stats.



3. Ah 117 thing again :D

You know why it was made, it was necessity, considering we had players all over the globe for tournaments.

I agree however that game is now much better than it was then :wink:

However, there are still places for improvement, acelerations for example :lol:
Rank: 2008 (5), 2009 (16), 2010 (6)

Results 2010: Singles (70-27), Doubles (56-19)

Titles 2010: Davis Cup, Valencia (s), Eastbourne (d), Zagreb (d), Paris (d)
Final 2010: 10 (US Open (s), Wimbledon (d), Madrid (d), WTF London (d)...)
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Re: We need more Power - review on current state of TE Onlin

Postby manutoo » 16 Jul 2015, 05:02

1) I don't know for the Top 10 of the Tour, but for the Top 25 by ELO, it gives this :
- Defender : 3
- PB : 11
- Puncher : 7
- Varied : 0
- Volleyer : 1
- Counter : 3

Maybe I should boost the Defenders... :thinking:



.... ':D
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Re: We need more Power - review on current state of TE Onlin

Postby Blacky » 16 Jul 2015, 15:01

Well I didnt ask top 25 for a reason, a guess big majoritiy of those PBs and Ps are outside top 10...how many of them are competitive vs top 10s
Rank: 2008 (5), 2009 (16), 2010 (6)

Results 2010: Singles (70-27), Doubles (56-19)

Titles 2010: Davis Cup, Valencia (s), Eastbourne (d), Zagreb (d), Paris (d)
Final 2010: 10 (US Open (s), Wimbledon (d), Madrid (d), WTF London (d)...)
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Re: We need more Power - review on current state of TE Onlin

Postby manutoo » 17 Jul 2015, 05:50

There's only 1 defender in the ELO Top 10... So I doubt there's any real issue with the Defender Style being OP.

Anyway, the matter you pointed out is not really bound to the different Play Styles available, but about the acceleration efficiency... So I'll be waiting for some .dmos to show that.
Quick hint : if an acceleration done from 4 meters behind the baseline doesn't give a winner, this is intended..! You should be near the baseline to do significant damage.
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