Stamina

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Stamina

Postby djarvik » 10 Sep 2014, 18:06

Manu,

I have noticed a few things, maybe you can check it out and see if it can be improved:

- Stamina does not recover after a missed first serve. It does if you double fault or Ace though.
- Stamina is not getting depleted when running, or not depleting enough. As we know that running/moving in tennis takes up the most amount of energy. Legs of the players are the first to go when they are tired. Shots take energy too, but not nearly as much as running. It is most glaring when playing a long rally where attacking player makes the defending player run and ends up with less or equal stamina left after such rally. Which is wrong, as it is clear that the defending player had to run corner to corner for a good 10-15 shot rally - while an attacking player was mostly moving slightly left right and making the defending player run.

What are your thoughts on this guys? Manu?
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Re: Stamina

Postby manutoo » 11 Sep 2014, 03:58

Hello,

1- that'd lead to a possible game exploit where people low on energy would miss their 1st serve on purpose to get more energy back ; plus technically, there's no allowed rest time between 1st & 2nd serve, unlike between 2 points

2- it has already been discussed there => topic15-3623.php ; read my comments till the last one.
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Re: Stamina

Postby djarvik » 16 Sep 2014, 02:39

Thanks for the reference - that was a long read. :)

I think that Accel that you think of and the acell in TE are different thing. Mainly because in real life I have to LIMIT myself on each shot, control the OVER-HIT, and in TE I don't have to worry about it. No such thing as "overcooking" a shot. You just press and it will power-up to the games limit.

So to me, these accels are not your ALL OUT shots, rather a controlled aggressive (low net clearance) shot. I can tell you with absolute confidence - I can hit these all day! ...well maybe not in my current shape, but still, that will not get me tired. These shots are all technique and timing, and take up very little energy. Most energy is spent on running.....only after your legs are starting to lose a step - these shots become more tiresome, and even then - not really. You simply lose a step in your footwork and start to pull-up to these shots, or catch them late and miss more etc. But you do not lose your MPH - speed on these shots.....not unless we are talking about a match where you hit a ton of them - and once again, the most tiredness will come from your footwork.

So I do not agree on the principle with you here, but, how about a possible solution that I thought of to further the games realism and fun:

Make it possible to OVERCHARGE the shots. Meaning if you overcharge - you will hit out, or produce a net shot. Make it random. This will add another layer to the gameplay, not only you will have to be there on time - you have to START charging at the right time - and not too early. This can extent to a top spin shot as well, and to all shots. I'll be honest I have not thought this idea through, came to me as I was posting this.....so it may have some serious holes.
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Re: Stamina

Postby manutoo » 17 Sep 2014, 05:11

djarvik,
1st, I have this strange feeling, call it a hint, that you didn't read everything I wrote and/or understand it, so I invite you to read it again (no need to read other people's posts, I'm the only one writing anything interesting around here (*) ).

So you can hit 140km/h shots all day ?
I'd really like to see that, genuinely.
By any chance, would you be able to set up something like this :
- a tennis court
- 100 tennis balls
- a radar to show the speed of your strike
- you standing with your feet on the baseline
- a ball thrower standing 1 meter after the opposite baseline and throwing 1 ball every 2.5 seconds at 115km/h ( = average Nadal's shot speed and about average TE B1 speed), with slightly randomized height but nothing too much to not prevent you to be able to do strong shots, and randomized pattern to get the ball at +/-1 meter left/right from the center of the baseline (so you'll have to move a lil bit left/right before each shot, still standing on the baseline) (I'm just hoping that ball throwers can do that)
- you have to hit 100 balls non-stop with your forehand, either putting 95% in if you choose to aim anywhere within the limits of the court, or 85% in if you aim once at 1m of the left lane line and once 1m of the right lane line (repeated 50 times) ; if you put less than 95% or 85% in, the results are not valid
- if you actually can easily hit stronger than 140km/h, then you should do the test with that speed (up to 155km/h)
- a camera to record all your strikes with the radar in view & clearly readable, with an angle giving an idea if your strikes are in or not
- you can replace yourself by someone more fit than you, as long as he hits at least at 140km/h

I guess I'm asking too much, but I'd really love to know what strike speed a good player would produce over the course of the 100 shots. (reminder: TE PowerBaseliner with 100% stamina can hit about 20 accelerations before getting tired).

Note: this setting is still less tiring than hitting accelerations in a match where you have to keep track of your opponent, without knowing exactly what to expect from his racket before and after your strike.

About your overcharge, it's an interesting idea ; I think I already played a game with that, it may have been Roland Garros 98, it was nice enough.
It doesn't easily fit with the current preparation system (which is different from a charge system), especially as the player is not supposed to release the button before the strike, so that'd lead to heavy changes in the game.


(*) : note for people lacking total sense of humor : that was a little joke :whistle:
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Re: Stamina

Postby djarvik » 18 Sep 2014, 22:06

djarvik wrote:I think that Accel that you think of and the acell in TE are different thing. Mainly because in real life I have to LIMIT myself on each shot, control the OVER-HIT, and in TE I don't have to worry about it. No such thing as "overcooking" a shot. You just press and it will power-up to the games limit.

So to me, these accels are not your ALL OUT shots, rather a controlled aggressive (low net clearance) shot. I can tell you with absolute confidence - I can hit these all day! ...


Above is the answer to the first part. The Accel at speeds in TE simply doesn't do enough damage as in real life. The average stroke speed in ATP is about 70-75mph - 110-120kmh. At that average speed, players can hit the ball "all day". I understand that the shots that go above that take up more energy, but honestly, not much more. The footwork always takes up THE MOST energy in tennis. If you feel tired after swinging at the ball then I will venture to say that you are "arming" it. The fact that you need to be in perfect position and have perfect timing to get the maximum speed on the ball supports what I say - most of the power on the shots are generated by feet and footwork, not the actual swing itself.

All I am trying to convey to you, that running corner to corner needs to be way more tiring that it is now. When I am in a 10+ shot rally while controlling the court and making my opponent run corner to corner while literally painting the lines - my opponent should be breathing heavy and falling of his feet after a few of these rallies. And yet right now it certainly does not feel that way. This also accumulates throughout the match reducing players reaction time and speed. There is never a Full Recovery. That happens after a good night sleep.

I did understand what you wrote, no need to poke at me.

IF that accel in TE would have the same "weight" and the same effectiveness as a real life "all out" shot, than you can bring that compassing that you did and ask me to hit them balls like that all day. But I will still stand by point of view and experience and tell you - "NEVER hit with all your power, as you will hit out all the balls, find the control and dial in the power to keep the ball in court." And that is not as tiring as TE represents currently.

As I mentioned earlier to you, I am not that familiar with Games Engine, certainly not like you are. So I am NOT proposing any changes that will be detrimental. I am actually trying to illustrate my feeling to you so YOU can make a decision and see if this is something that needs to be addressed, can be addressed or not.

To summarize - I believe running it TE does not take nearly enough stamina as it should and shots take more that they should. It is reversed. Via getting tired from running your footwork and position suffers - hence your shots becomes less effective, less clean. The driving force of this are FEET and FOOTWORK, not the swing.


I am glad you like the idea of overcharge. I do understand that it maybe near impossible to implement in to the current engine. I just found it interesting and decided to throw it out there :D Maybe one day you maybe able to do something like that, for future. BTW - the player would not need to release the button, he should keep holing it. But he needs to START holding it not too early, as he will over charge. So he still need to position well, still needs to charge, but once he charges for too long, he has more chances of over hitting. And the longer he holds past that threshold (perfect charge timing) - the more chances he will over hit. .....something like that.
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Re: Stamina

Postby manutoo » 19 Sep 2014, 04:39

Ok, so a few things :
1- main stamina depletion scale factor comes from the difference between the Stamina skill and the Speed skill ( => http://www.managames.com/tennis/doc/Ten ... #tiredness ) ; I'd call a player with +10% in STA - SPD a running machine
2- game is mostly meant to be played with STA near SPD or under it
3- you play with ITST Mod where players have at least +25%, thus running is much much less tiring than intended
4- I already told you about that in the other topic about ITST, but apparently you didn't read it
5- in the other stamina topic, I wrote "an acceleration requires a lot of leg & body work", which you seem to completely ignore in your above message, making me feel once again you do not read what I write
6- so this time, I'm trying to write in bullet points, maybe it'd get to your brain more easily
7- the positioning done by the auto-pos & small footwork aren't tiring ; the tiredness from the acceleration compensates that
8- TE players can hit 110-120km/h shots all day, all night
9- basic physics laws don't agree with you
10- I have facts & physics to backup my choices (I watched dozen if not hundred of matches of attackers vs defenders on clay in the 90's)
11- if you want to make me change my mind, sweat a bit & do the video I asked you above :blackeye:
12- meanwhile, you may set your STA - SPD to -10% instead of +25% and enjoy the result (or not)... :aureola:
13- bonus note : try to actually show that you read what I write, I extremely dislike people making me repeat myself (I don't mind if they ask for additional explanations though, I may not explain clearly enough sometimes)
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Re: Stamina

Postby djarvik » 19 Sep 2014, 16:16

OK, I re-read the whole thing for the third time to see if I missed anything, I didn't. Once again, I am not asking "how" it works or "why" it works that way. I am simply telling you that you are wrong. It doesn't. You obviously disagree.

Hitting the ball is NOT more tiring then a getting to the ball. Call it Accel or what you will. It is just not reality, maybe it is your reality, but not mine. Again, if you get tired hitting so called Accels in real life - then one of the two is happening:

1. You are "arming" the ball (the Tennis Elbow name for the game suddenly makes a lot of sense)
2. You are bashing it with no control and spraying in all over but the court

Your point about ITST Stamina is taken. It maybe so, but it was done this way for a reason. With lower stamina delta the rallies would be even longer then they are now. Counterproductive. And I already know your answer:

- ITST mod is bad, all the proponents of it are trolls :whistle:

Anyway. I see we are going nowhere here and I accept the responsibility that this is my fault. So lets conclude this and agree to disagree on the philosophy of stamina. This and other discussion we have is getting heated up for no other reason but you being annoyed. So I will stop annoying you. :)
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Re: Stamina

Postby manutoo » 20 Sep 2014, 04:35

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