players can move backward faster than light [+winners issue]

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Re: players can move backward faster than light

Postby manutoo » 15 Sep 2014, 04:26

freehand,
if you have this problem on Pro-7, then the solution is explained here => topic21-15982.php .
It's in French, so in short for our English readers : CPU does a slice ending short regularly when he's attacked, so it's possible to step-in (ie: get close of the baseline) even before he hits the ball, and then easily finish the point.

isaldor,
The Incredible 6 is faster to react than a human, position itself better than a human (in part coz it's not limited to 8 moving directions), and it runs faster than a human (coz of cheating bonus given to Incredible level), so yup you almost can't do a clear winner against him.
In term of ball reach (and _only_ ball reach), the best humans are likely closer of Master-8 / Incredible-2, depending of the situation.

And some other people think the ball depth feel scripted, so not varied enough, which means I can't make happy everybody at the same time... :sad3:

Rob92,
it looks like you have a good understand of the situation..! :yes:
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Re: players can move backward faster than light

Postby The_Truthbringer » 15 Sep 2014, 11:36

I think Isaldor meant to say that he knows how to position himself online because he competes with IC6 offline. He was not saying that it was unrealistic that he could not hit winner to open court offline vs IC6, because we all understand the AI gets inhumane qualities when facing such high level, but he is saying that when he positions himself perfectly in court online and hits to the open corner the ball can still come back deep after a missshit.

I have to say I agree with that. When I play a perfect short cross acceleration on the line to get my opponent out of position and get a weak central reply landing around the service line the ball to the other side of the court should be winner 95% of the time, not the 5% of the time it is now. This is in my opinion the reason why such unrealistic and boring average rally length stats are reached online.
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Re: players can move backward faster than light

Postby MarkChan » 15 Sep 2014, 12:05

Yes sometimes you cannot hit a winner even though your opponent hits a safe shot becoz of their lighting backward speed to defend in circle while using b1 shot to hit extremely deep shot.

This is very unrealistic. Even Nadal on clay wont be able to do that. But people are doing this on grass here online.
So I can only play defensively like them or rely on dropshot/volleying. No way to hit a baseline winner in this game against decent online opponents (say, those ranked top 50), dont even have to be the top guys :fear:
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Re: players can move backward faster than light

Postby isaldor » 15 Sep 2014, 13:03

I think you just don't wanna understand. I play at really high level online, against guys who beat IC 8 or more. So when i say i know how to move and position myself, i meant it. You have to try the game at high level to see how difficult it is to hit winners. And it would be even worse with elite controls, cause the backboarding style will still be there, but it would be way harder to hit a winner. So we would have, at high level, ratio (W/UE), like 5/20 per sets.
When you have an open court, and when you hit the ball, in real Tennis, there is no way the opponent can bring the ball back. Here the opponent reach the ball, and can hit a crazy deep shot, who turn the point around. And once again i'm not talking about CPU. It is more difficult to hit winners against top guys than against CPU 6.
Last edited by isaldor on 15 Sep 2014, 14:35, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: players can move backward faster than light

Postby testo » 15 Sep 2014, 14:28

isaldor wrote:I think you just don't wanna understand. I play at really high level online, against guys who beat IC 8 or more. So when i say i know how to move and position myself, i meant it. You have to try the game at high level to see how difficult it is to hit winners. And it would be even worse with elite controls, cause the backboarding style will still be there, but it would be way harder to hit a winner. So we would have, at high level, ratio (W/UE), like 5/20 per sets.
When you have an open court, and when you hit the light, in real Tennis, there is no way the opponent bring the ball back. Here the opponent reach, the ball, and can hit a crazy deep shot, who turn the point around. And once again i'm not talking about CPU. It is more difficult to hit winners against top guys than against CPU 6.


yeah totally agree again...
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Re: players can move backward faster than light

Postby MarkChan » 15 Sep 2014, 15:21

isaldor wrote:I think you just don't wanna understand. I play at really high level online, against guys who beat IC 8 or more. So when i say i know how to move and position myself, i meant it. You have to try the game at high level to see how difficult it is to hit winners. And it would be even worse with elite controls, cause the backboarding style will still be there, but it would be way harder to hit a winner. So we would have, at high level, ratio (W/UE), like 5/20 per sets.
When you have an open court, and when you hit the ball, in real Tennis, there is no way the opponent can bring the ball back. Here the opponent reach the ball, and can hit a crazy deep shot, who turn the point around. And once again i'm not talking about CPU. It is more difficult to hit winners against top guys than against CPU 6.

Absolutely :jap:
And I don't play ITST mod but realistic mode+elite control in the official tour. But I feel the same problem as ITST guys
Singles Titles and Finalists:
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Challenger: Georgia F1 '14,Wroclaw '16

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Masters: Paris '14(RU),Madrid '15(RU),Rome '15(RU)
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Re: players can move backward faster than light

Postby freehand » 15 Sep 2014, 16:00

You just need to watch tennis elbow's videos on youtube (even some manutoo's videos). It's always the same:
never-ending rallies, and player must go to the net to finish the point because it's impossible to hit a winner from the baseline.
I saw a video where the hits reached 75, without a winner !
It's obvious there is something really wrong in the gameplay... and that's not real tennis !
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Re: players can move backward faster than light

Postby Algo » 15 Sep 2014, 23:41

Part of the problem might be that its way too effective to hit a shot at the very last moment, obviously not so late that it turns to a safe shot, but not charged either.
I can usually hit balls back quite near or even on the line that way. Most times with b1, top spin remapped shot, or slice but also on accelerations.
Elite certainly helps to fix that specific side of the issue, though.
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Re: players can move backward faster than light

Postby isaldor » 16 Sep 2014, 01:13

Elite controls would make those slices goes out more often that's true. But elite controls promote the defensive game style, cause you can still defend very very well with elite controls, by hitting safe shots during all the rally. The guy who's attacking has too many chances to do an unforced error. So it is almost impossible to attack at high level with elite controls.
The game is enjoyable at medium level (1k5-2k ELO), but when you play at high level it becomes so difficult to hit winners and to shorter rallies. The game is clearly based on a defensive gameplay, and that's why we'd like it to be more winner friendly, and lower backward speed would reduce the ability to defend too easily and in a really unrealistic way. I think we're all agree here to say that it would be nice to have a gameplay more winner friendly.

Freehand, 2 of our best players had a rally around 160 shots on clay in an official match.
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Re: players can move backward faster than light

Postby manutoo » 16 Sep 2014, 01:53

So here a little dmo of mine :
2014-09-15.21-30 - P.1 vs R.Nad 6-2.dmo

I had Elite controls, and I got lead 0-2 and then won 6-2 against CPU Pro-10, defender, 100% top spin on clay ; I had 100% in rally skills, the CPU had 93% in speed, 100% in stamina, ~93% FH, ~80% BH ; I did 20 winners for 9 faults ; the CPU 12 for 10. Average rally length = 6.2 .
I basically didn't play the game since 1 year and half (and not that much since 3 years) so I'm heavily rusty, don't master _at all_ the shoulder acceleration, had 0 feeling for the short acceleration, and I was super tired from work, and sleepy. I could barely see the ball when changing to the court side against the sun. So I moved like shit, missed a bunch of balls, did a ton of positioning mistakes that lead to errors on my accelerations. And yet, it was a winner feast, with only +7% on power compared to opponent speed, while the other settings are the best defending ones possible.

So now, I knew it wasn't enough test, +7% on power was a too big advantage, even for someone impaired like me, so I played even more, even if I was super tired.
I put all CPU rally skills to 100%, and set the Skill Mode to Realistic, to match the recommended experience.
2014-09-15.22-43 - P.1 vs R.Nad 6-2.dmo

6-2 again, with 21-18 winners/errors for me, 14-20 for the CPU. Average rally length = 6.5 . Still realistic and winner friendly enough. And if it was more realistic, the winners would probably go down and the average rally length would go up, not the other way around. (little reminder : Errors in TE = Unforced + Forced Errors, unlike the stats you see on TV)
Also this time I had a bit more feelings for the short acceleration. I did only 1 good shoulder height acceleration, at 157km/h, and it ended as a winner while I was standing about 3 or 4 meters behind the baseline. I let you imagine what it would give for someone who actually knows how to manage this shot.

So if a tired half-blind grandpa like me can do that with basically a hand tied in his back, what about you bunch of pussies stop to whine and put some balls on the table and start to whack the little yellow ball instead ?

freehand,
I guess the video of mine you saw with long rally was "defeating a defender" ; it was done before I added the Shoulder Acceleration Bonus to the game, and nerfed a bit the topspin players. Now, watch the .Dmo I just posted, and learn.

And yup, TE isn't real tennis, it's not a perfect simulation, but it's not that far from the real deal ; at least I heard more than once that it's the closest one ; and it's not that bad considering I always put the fun to play 1st, and the realism only 2nd... :aureola:

The_Truthbringer,
only 5% of due winners ? Hum, let me guess, you play with ITST Mod, right ?

MarkChan,
so how do you explain that top players can do a decent amount of winners against each other ? My guess = you're bad and don't want to admit it (a bit like our never-stopping-to-whine friend Testo).

isaldor,
yes I agree that ITST is a winner killer and a defender heaven that requires some serious fixing. The original game with the recommended settings ? Not so much... :whistle:
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Re: players can move backward faster than light

Postby isaldor » 16 Sep 2014, 02:14

Wow, so much hate in your answer. What do you have against ITST ? They stole money away from you ? We don't complain because we like to complain, we're playing this game at his very best. We're all agree here to say that this game is the closer to a simulation. ITST is not a problem man, some guys buy the game because they want to play on ITST. We tried everything possible with the tools you gave us. That's why we're making those suggestions and not because we want to annoy you.
You did test against Pro 10. This is a ridiculously low level and it is not relevant at all. We're talking about high level here. I can beat Pro 10 with elite settings 6/0 without problems. Like i said, it is more difficult to beat best players of ITST, than CPU IC 7/8. If elite settings were the solution to the never ending rallies, we would have choose this solution a long time ago. But unfortunately, it is not the solution to this problem. And the problem, even if you don't think so, is existing. And once again, when i say so it's not to annoy you or to denigrate the game you created.

Once again, the game is enjoyable at middle level because they don't understand game mecanics like good players do so they do mistakes (= correct average rallies). But once you reach a good level, and you play against good players, you'll see that it is very difficult to hit winners. And i'm not saying it is impossible of course, but it is way more difficult that what it should be, and what it is in real matchs no matter the mod or settings.

Regards
Last edited by isaldor on 16 Sep 2014, 02:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: players can move backward faster than light

Postby djarvik » 16 Sep 2014, 02:15

Are you suggesting that that there are settings that yield a more realistic experience then the ones ITST is using, considering all factors?

I am ALL ears.

BTW - Pro 10? Really? I consider myself a weak player and I play with master 5+ if I want more rallies and Incredible 1 if I want an uphill battle. I usually lose to incredible one 6-2 6-4. But regardless, I think, at least from my end and Isladors end - we are talking about the online Multiplayer, where two humans are playing. Playing against AI - you can find a certain patterns that work, time after time. Not so much with human opponents. The Average shot rally is a bit misleading in this case, you can score winners with 1-2 punch = serve ON THE LINE + opponent reacting late + accell to open court. But once the rally starts on equal terms and both opponent are in it - it last way too long and here were you see the "counters" and other weird shots that keep coming back even if you setup the point near perfectly.

You are saying from one end - that the game needs to be approachable, then saying that it is the most realistic etc....I agree, keeping such balance is not easy and kudos to you for coming so far with it. If anything, this is a constructive criticism to further advance the fun in the game, rather as you eloquently put - whining. Some of us are just as much of a grandpa as you are and addressing us as kids is not a fair game from your end.

Just my 2 cents, take it or leave it :)
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Re: players can move backward faster than light

Postby manutoo » 16 Sep 2014, 03:12

isaldor,
my problem with ITST ? It brings some issues, and then people come to complain to _me_ about the game, and when I try to explain to them the issues mostly come from ITST, they tell me :
You are completely wrong about that

instead of trying to understand what I mean.
Plus in bonus, some other people having problem against the CPU come to join the dance while also ignoring my explanations specific to the CPU... :roll:

djarvik,
you play with master 5+ ? Good. Me I don't play, _at all_ . Thus the Pro-10. And it's already better than the Pro-7 of freehand (remember that I have a horde of people to deal with in this topic ;) ). It also happens to match the Pro-10 of my "Defeating a defender" on youtube, so it was good to show the evolution of the gameplay, and also, it's the recommended setting for realism, and lastly, it's close of the average level people play the game (including offline).
When I was playing more regularly, I was playing against Master-10 when I wanted a challenge, but even in that time, most of times I stuck to Pro-10, to be testing a setting closer of what most people would be playing.
Moreover, the difference between Pro-10 & Master-10 is actually quite small ; it's just being a bit more fast and handling position a bit better. It doesn't change the nature of the game. So considering my form of the moment, Pro-10 was also a good choice.
Incredible on the other hand is cheating & inhumane, testing anything against it is generally not a good idea.

About ITST settings... I already told you the main ones many times, but once more won't hurt (I hope :blackeye: ) : slow autopos + no preview + Simulation controls is bad for highly skilled players, especially for winners + unfriendly for new players (ie: they won't learn how to position themselves perfectly to do winners).
On this, I noticed lately that you had slower surfaces (ie: your BG cement is a bit slower than original one) which even more enforces defenders.
So you get longer rallies and stamina depletes more. To counter the lower winner chance and the stamina depleting, you lowered the speed of player. Result, game is slightly slower, once again favoring defense (*), and stamina doesn't deplete enough on run (thus your other recent topic, I guess).
So all put together that makes you go from "a bit too hard to score winners" to "defense heaven".
There's not much .dmo of top MG Tour players ; the last one I found between #2 & #4 features a decent amount of winners. Could it have a pinch more ? Probably yes. But nothing that legitimates the use of superlative like "players can move backward faster than light". And probably not enough for me to take the risk to throw the current balance away, which is in decent state.

(*) An extra word on lower run speed : if your speed is lower but still high enough to reach the ball, then you may not have enough time anymore to position yourself correctly to attack, while your defending capability is still high enough. So this has a tendency to slower the game (especially coupled with the other issues) which leads to requiring globally a tiny bit less reflexes, which means that once again, it's easier to defend.
I give 1 example : if you do a B1 shot near the line, with lower run speed, your opponent's answer might be less good and thus you'll have more time to react to it, but you'll also do a weaker response to that shot due to your own lower run speed and so on.

Reminder => recommended settings = Average Auto-Pos + Elite Controls + Danger Zone Preview
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Re: players can move backward faster than light

Postby MarkChan » 16 Sep 2014, 06:32

MarkChan,
so how do you explain that top players can do a decent amount of winners against each other ? My guess = you're bad and don't want to admit it (a bit like our never-stopping-to-whine friend Testo).


If I play pro10 opponent I would only let them win a few pts. :lol: But I beat incredible 3 opponents offline in elite control + realistic mode. And you don't play on tour and don't realize humans are always better than cpu. :roll: CPU are stupid. You use b1+b2 and they hit it into the net or hit it out. But humans knows to use safe shot or slice. Humans also know how to move backward to defend in circle and anticipate the balls way better. You always say the realistic cpu is pro level but you just don't want to admit half of the guys on tour can beat incredible cpu offline and they are better than incredible cpu themselves :lol:

But if you value offline gameplay for newbies more than online player we can't do anything of coz. Let the grindfest begin :lol:
Singles Titles and Finalists:
250: Kuala Lumpur '15
Challenger: Georgia F1 '14,Wroclaw '16

Doubles Titles and Finalists:
GS: Australian Open '15,Roland Garros '15(RU)
Masters: Paris '14(RU),Madrid '15(RU),Rome '15(RU)
250: Kuala Lumpur '14,Doha '16
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Re: players can move backward faster than light

Postby MarkChan » 16 Sep 2014, 06:36

isaldor wrote:I think you just don't wanna understand. I play at really high level online, against guys who beat IC 8 or more. So when i say i know how to move and position myself, i meant it. You have to try the game at high level to see how difficult it is to hit winners. And it would be even worse with elite controls, cause the backboarding style will still be there, but it would be way harder to hit a winner. So we would have, at high level, ratio (W/UE), like 5/20 per sets.
When you have an open court, and when you hit the ball, in real Tennis, there is no way the opponent can bring the ball back. Here the opponent reach the ball, and can hit a crazy deep shot, who turn the point around. And once again i'm not talking about CPU. It is more difficult to hit winners against top guys than against CPU 6.

He doesn't understand your English, showing a dmo of game with Pro opponent, not even incredible cpu opponent , not to mention guys with 2500ELO online :annoyed:
Singles Titles and Finalists:
250: Kuala Lumpur '15
Challenger: Georgia F1 '14,Wroclaw '16

Doubles Titles and Finalists:
GS: Australian Open '15,Roland Garros '15(RU)
Masters: Paris '14(RU),Madrid '15(RU),Rome '15(RU)
250: Kuala Lumpur '14,Doha '16
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