No previews!!

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No previews!!

Postby FezAzulay » 21 Nov 2012, 07:48

Just want to express my general dismay that so many players like "previews". Its very 'tutorial' in nature. Why would experienced players use previews, seeing that the skill of the game largely involves reading the ball trajectory and positioning player. These previews nearly render that skill null. So someone tell me why? Why aren't "Master" tournaments played without previews?? How can someone be fashioned a "Master" while relying on previews! Its like calling someone a master cyclist who still uses training wheels! Lol!

In my opinion, you shouldnt even be ranked unless you play without previews and on elite mode. Anything else is just a contradiction.
Lets be realistic. Cmon folks.

Thanks for letting me vent.
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Re: No previews!!

Postby Gottfried von Cramm » 21 Nov 2012, 09:02

Hello FezAzulay,

I think the possible absence of previews would be the minor distinction of being a good player or even not. The best players at this tour - exempli gratia Nader, Dasp, alexjasmins et cetera - carry out their game in such concentration, sagaciousness and severity that you'd have had no alternative but to practice, practice and practice.
Vice versa is the preview a chance for ascending players to learn their positional play respective their footwork by visual trajectories.

If you don't like that kind there are other tournaments (I don't want to name any names here) which demand no previews.

Yours respectfully,
Gottfried Freiherr von Cramm.
Retired ... and changed to ITST.
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Re: No previews!!

Postby FezAzulay » 21 Nov 2012, 10:02

Gottfried von Cramm wrote:Hello FezAzulay,

I think the possible absence of previews would be the minor distinction of being a good player or even not. The best players at this tour - exempli gratia Nader, Dasp, alexjasmins et cetera - carry out their game in such concentration, sagaciousness and severity that you'd have had no alternative but to practice, practice and practice.
Vice versa is the preview a chance for ascending players to learn their positional play respective their footwork by visual trajectories.

If you don't like that kind there are other tournaments (I don't want to name any names here) which demand no previews.

Yours respectfully,
Gottfried Freiherr von Cramm.


I agree with you, a minor distinction indeed. But the preview being "a chance for ascending players..." makes little sense to me. What exactly is an "ascending player"? I think what you're calling ascending is "very beginner". Do the bottom players of real tennis get to use soft training balls against the top 10 to "learn their positional play"? Absurd. And its an oddity how if you take the preview away from many very good players..they bemoan it! It has extended far beyond a mere training tool, as you call it, and has become a crutch.

You explained the one niche use of the preview, but you didn't really explain why the preview is so ubiquitous, why so standard, why so poplular. It makes no sense. Keep it in training. "Practice, practice, practice" without the preview retarding the field of play.
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Re: No previews!!

Postby FezAzulay » 21 Nov 2012, 10:09

By the way, what tournament don't demand previews? Name names.
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Re: No previews!!

Postby Gottfried von Cramm » 21 Nov 2012, 10:17

FezAzulay wrote:Do the bottom players of real tennis get to use soft training balls against the top 10 to "learn their positional play"? Absurd.

This is just a computer game.

FezAzulay wrote:By the way, what tournament don't demand previews? Name names.

[EDIT By ManuTOO: link removed ; reason : no link to other Forums, please]

FezAzulay wrote:You explained the one niche use of the preview, but you didn't really explain why the preview is so ubiquitous, why so standard, why so poplular.

Never change the running system. :wink:


Yours respectfully,
Gottfried Freiherr von Cramm.
Retired ... and changed to ITST.
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Re: No previews!!

Postby FezAzulay » 21 Nov 2012, 17:26

"this is just a computer game"?


that's an entirely different discussion. thousands of posts here discuss how to make the game more realistic. should we shut down those discussions too with a the phrase, "this is just a computer game"?
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Re: No previews!!

Postby Steyo » 21 Nov 2012, 18:29

FezAzulay wrote:"this is just a computer game"?


that's an entirely different discussion. thousands of posts here discuss how to make the game more realistic. should we shut down those discussions too with a the phrase, "this is just a computer game"?


Not sure why you feel so strong about previews. You don't have to take part in tournaments that have this enabled?
It's useful for starting players, and I use it because I am still learning the game.

If you are so pro tho, have you won any tournys? Or you just mad?
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Re: No previews!!

Postby FezAzulay » 22 Nov 2012, 02:00

Its not anger, just light-hearted pseudo passion! I'm an intermediate player. I just don't get the logic. this game is very well made, much work having gone into making the physics realistic, something hard to control. But then, where control is easy, realism is abandoned...all for the sake of "training"! All hail training!
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Re: No previews!!

Postby manutoo » 22 Nov 2012, 04:12

Playing without preview creates an unrealistic difficulty ; in real life, it's not hard to see where the ball is going, how deep it is, and get a good idea on how it'll bounce.

In a video game, without preview, it's hard, coz :
1- there's no stereoscopic view
2- the point of view is up & behind your player instead of being in your eyes
3- the screen & resolution are smaller than what you get from your real eyes
4- you don't only have to look the ball, but also where your body stands from it (coz the point of view is outside your body), so it means less focus for the ball

So if you want a real tennis simulation, you need previews ; if you want an hard arcade game, you can remove them ; anyway at the end, it's up to what you enjoy playing the most that matters... :yes:

Note: if you have a great spatial view from 2D images, then you may not be impaired much by all the points exposed above. But I don't, I just have a normal one, and for me, it's unrealistically hard to see where the ball is going without preview.
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Re: No previews!!

Postby FezAzulay » 22 Nov 2012, 19:44

I agree that it may create an unrealstic difficulty, but its only just that, a difficulty! Not an impossibility, and it only is that difficulty when the ball is going very deep and high-arcing which is only a small percentage of the strikes. Besides, I CAN tell ("difficult" as it is) when that's happening, IF I'm really concentrating. Maybe I'm of the minority that has good spatial ability, but nonetheless, its ability that makes one better at something than another! And spatial skills are at the heart of what TE challenges (the SAME spatial skills real tennis challenges, albeit of a different feel and scale). Your argument could be similar to this: Jane and Jack like basketball. Jane is very good at putting the ball in the hoop. Jack is not. So, Jack lowers the hoop. Because he says, for him, the height of the hoop is an unrealistic difficulty. Jack is only 3 feet tall.

Jack's argument is plausible. It probably is difficult for him. But he must live with his impairments. Not place a footstool on the court.


But, having said that, let's say it is IMPOSSIBLE to judge the distance of those high-arcing deep strikes because of the reasons you list. First of all, moments of impossibility create an element of chaos that is present in all things, all sports. That's part of what makes sport so exciting and unpredictable. Previews erase much of that unpredictability and put absolute predictability and order into nearly every moment. It undermines the element of chaos and surprise. Secondly, that occasional unrealism, as you call it, would be a better compromise, then to compromise EVERY strike with a preview help. But, seeing as I am a diplomatic fellow let me offer a solution that would unite the two camps (as you know there are MANY players who feel the way I do. E.g. Algo): Why not have a preview appear on those few strikes that REALLY demand it? Cmon, you know that's a good idea! ;)


PS Manutoo, you don't really have trouble judging every ball do you? It IS only those deep, high-arcing ones, right?
Last edited by FezAzulay on 22 Nov 2012, 19:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No previews!!

Postby manutoo » 23 Nov 2012, 03:55

FezAzulay,
I mainly have problem with crossed balls, either short or long, and it's the ones that will lead me to not center well the ball in my racket if I play without preview.
I also have a bit of problem, but less, with the bounce height & length ; I guess this one depends more if your opponent has a lot of topspin or not and I tried only with an opponent with normal/low spin.
But I read many reports where people have trouble with short balls, so I guess we're not equals in our difficulties against the ball trajectories.
So only showing the preview in some cases wouldn't be a perfect solution.

Your basketball example doesn't correspond to our present case : here, I want to re-create within a video game what happens on a real court, not change the rules of the sport. On a real court I don't have problem seeing where the ball goes and never ever air-swing (ie: miss the ball coz I was just a bit too far from it), while in-game, without preview, I have many difficulties and air-swing sometimes which is very unrealistic. When I play TE, I want to step in the shoes of Federer, not in the shoes of a half-blind mole... ;)

And even with the preview and the Danger Zone, you still don't have a perfect indication of the ball height, and thus you still have room to play a better strike by stepping into the Danger Zone if you see the ball trajectory better than the average player. I think it's quite enough to break any predictability and create different patterns between players (without talking about positioning handling, strike selection, reflexes, anticipation & everything else that comes in matter of being good at TE ;) ).

I perfectly conceive some people prefer to play without preview, for a better immersion, as in "realistic TV casting", and/or even to add more difficulty to make the gameplay more "spicy", but personally I very prefer the realistic gameplay of a tennis simulation, as in "being in the head of a pro tennis player"... :yes:
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Re: No previews!!

Postby Gottfried von Cramm » 23 Nov 2012, 10:05

Manutoo is hitting the nail on the head ... :!:

Yours respectfully,
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Re: No previews!!

Postby The Potro » 23 Nov 2012, 15:58

ive played this beautiful game for years, have never ever played with preview

that thing is a disgrace for the game...
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Re: No previews!!

Postby FezAzulay » 24 Nov 2012, 01:18

I appreciate your articulate reply manutoo. I call a draw! :D My final word is this: Preview just isn't as necessary as you purport, there are hundreds of players that just don't need it all. You exaggerate its neccessity I think.

thanks for the conversation though

-Fez (gone to ITST, happy preview play to all who nurse its teats) :lol:
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