Top Spin is still severely overpowered (proof attached)

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Top Spin is still severely overpowered (proof attached)

Postby Stajus » 23 Jul 2011, 04:20

Hey Manu,

So, I attached a set with Mr.Schmith on clay where I lost 1-6 and it could have been 0-6 even. He used a defender profile similar to the one he used at RG 2010 (he uses counter these days on tour). Anyways, the difference is so huge that I needed to make this topic :? Firstly, I played some cool sets with him over the last month when he used puncher and counter and I felt that I can compete even if I had lost most of the sets - it felt like it was fair.

Now, you can have a look at the .dmo, anyways...the top spin depth and even the return is just so overpowered that I have no words for it...I knew that I don't have a chance to win from point 1 :lol:...It was actually 2-6 1-6 but I only attach the 2nd set here......It's just so funny that he is the "defender" and I end up having to defend all the time, while when he uses different profiles I can compete at least. That's kinda telling me something is still wrong with the defender profile and these deep spins...it's just a severe imbalance :fear:

Furthermore, notice how he can reset the point a lot easier with the fh, even though bh is far from being a problem either...I tried spamming his bh in some points but after a while I realised it was hopeless and just wanted to finish with a game if possible :lol:

Anyways, let me know what you think.

P.S. I dont have the .dmos of the other stuff but one set puncher vs puncher I won 7-6, with counter he mostly won 2-6 or 3-6 but I had some 7-6 sets also, the difference is that it feels like you have got a chance but once he used the defender profile there was really 0 chance to win, especially since he improved his movement since last year when I could actually win more games vs his defender profile on clay.
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Re: Top Spin is still severely overpowered (proof attached)

Postby Mr.Schmith » 23 Jul 2011, 04:34

I've been trying to get this out for about a year every since I changed from defender to counter. The other funny thing is I have barely been playing defender for a year, only few exo sets from time to time. I am also right handed usually in the game and I switched back to a whole different style and pretty much demolished one of the best players right now. You reset points way easier. Whether you have a good return at the baseline or a bad one at the wall it's just resetting so easily. The bh is fine but covering it and hitting a massive forehand. It's easier to defend with spin and hardly needs any attention (especially on clay). The dmo pretty much explains the whole deal.

Watch the dmo before replying
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Re: Top Spin is still severely overpowered (proof attached)

Postby manutoo » 23 Jul 2011, 07:24

Ok, just watched the demo...
So several observations :
1) this is a good proof that 117ms Delay + Fair Play Mode + Tiredness off = utterly unrealistic gameplay... :sweat:
I think it'd be time you'd skip to Realistic Mode + Tiredness on at very least, and think about lowering Delay to 100ms so easy volley would give easy point at last.

2) as far as I can tell, Mr.Schmith moves & positions himself way better than Stajus. Many many times, Stajus hits the ball too late, missing opportunity to put more pressure on his opponent ; the way he positions himself, adapted to the unrealistic conditions outlined in 1) likely played a part in this behavior ; against another type of player it's more forgiving, but against a defender, each millisecond counts to reduce his preparation time to lower his spin

3) on clay, serve is less important so it's normal to get harsh score when a player dominates the other one like it was in this case

4) but still, a good bunch of topspin strikes seemed to be too long, so I'll look into that
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Re: Top Spin is still severely overpowered (proof attached)

Postby Stajus » 23 Jul 2011, 12:38

manutoo wrote:Ok, just watched the demo...
So several observations :
1) this is a good proof that 117ms Delay + Fair Play Mode + Tiredness off = utterly unrealistic gameplay... :sweat:
I think it'd be time you'd skip to Realistic Mode + Tiredness on at very least, and think about lowering Delay to 100ms so easy volley would give easy point at last.

2) as far as I can tell, Mr.Schmith moves & positions himself way better than Stajus. Many many times, Stajus hits the ball too late, missing opportunity to put more pressure on his opponent ; the way he positions himself, adapted to the unrealistic conditions outlined in 1) likely played a part in this behavior ; against another type of player it's more forgiving, but against a defender, each millisecond counts to reduce his preparation time to lower his spin

3) on clay, serve is less important so it's normal to get harsh score when a player dominates the other one like it was in this case

4) but still, a good bunch of topspin strikes seemed to be too long, so I'll look into that

I don't know about lower delays (the movement is so odd and sticky at lower delays that I don't even enjoy playing them anymore :roll:), but the bolded line is the reason why you can't constantly take the ball earlier, if you try that on deep spins you'll hit an error (at least with a standard PB/puncher profile). When he plays with a puncher (like me), or a counter profile the game is much closer and competitive, showing there are some fundamental flaws :annoyed: For example, puncher vs puncher he was probably a bit better too as he had 0/5 BPs, I had 0/1 and 2 points less in total, but won 7-6. When he plays with this defender profile it's just impossible to keep constant pressure with those ridiculous spins that basically allow him to defend and attack at the same time, meaning every shot I hit has to be perfect while he can just reset the points with deep spins whenever he wants to :sweat:

Anyways, I think Simon recorded some of the sets when he played as a counter/puncher so I'll attach these too when he sends them to me...

...same players, changed style (for him), completely different story => obvious imbalance :whistle:

P.S. A player or two told me I played badly in this set, sure it wasn't my best set and it was 2-3 am, but even when I played a perfect point the imbalance was so obvious really...no need to deny it :mrgreen:
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Re: Top Spin is still severely overpowered (proof attached)

Postby Serena Williams » 23 Jul 2011, 13:32

Defender:

* unlimited attack lobs
* 1 extra acceleration
* topspin bonus on the topspin strike
* lower handicap on length and speed of topspin strikes
What bugs me abt this is the last point,Manu u need to get rid of it
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Re: Top Spin is still severely overpowered (proof attached)

Postby Stajus » 23 Jul 2011, 18:18

Bah, I give this a rest...it's frustrating lol...I tried using these defender stats similar to what he used and I can't reproduce anything like it. I don't really understand this game even though I've been playing it since the end of 2009 LOL...nice to know. Anyways, such a big improvement for him compared to flat hitting profiles just like that...I don't think it's fair to ask for changes until I can reproduce such a superior level though, and I don't have a clue how to do that after 2-3 sets today as a defender :lol: Oh well, enjoy the defendernesssss :sweat:
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Re: Top Spin is still severely overpowered (proof attached)

Postby S.Williamz » 24 Jul 2011, 04:48

I agree that the spin shots go too deep too often...I don't think there should be any extra length help for spin at all(or reduced quite a bit), so I agree with Serena Williams. Spin is effective enough without it, one just has to move as well as all other styles have to get depth.
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Re: Top Spin is still severely overpowered (proof attached)

Postby manutoo » 24 Jul 2011, 05:23

Stajus,

>> ...same players, changed style (for him), completely different story => obvious imbalance

No, it's just show Defenders are advantaged on Clay, which is realistic, and that if you don't adapt your game to their style & you're tired coz it's 3am, then you'll be crushed... ;)

>> I tried using these defender stats similar to what he used and I can't reproduce anything like it

watch the .dmo & compare your positioning to Mr.Schmith's one ; I guess he learned a lot from Counter style and moves forward/backward very nicely, and it's very performant, even for other styles than Counter.
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Re: Top Spin is still severely overpowered (proof attached)

Postby Stajus » 24 Jul 2011, 18:13

Yeah, it becomes severely overpowered in his hands because he knows how to use this style perfectly (and probably a lot of practice in 2010 :evil:)...and I guess similar movement that applies for his counter profile isn't as effective on clay for obvious reasons (still is very effective since he had great results with it even on clay :mrgreen:), spin is a decent weapon. But perhaps the Serena's above have a valid point though :lol: Still, pretty impressed by what he can do with the defender...:sweat: Hamburg Final :sweat:
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