Delay / ping issue again

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Delay / ping issue again

Postby Srle » 22 Jun 2010, 14:50

Hello manoo,

last few days few players warned me that I need to set delay to 117 ms for online tournaments matches, and from everything they said it looks like it is some kind of rule that has to be done.

I don't understand why I should change delay (when hosting) to 117 ms in cases when I have very good connection with my opponents and game reads auto delay as 33 (ping around 50 average). I've also notice that in situations when I change delay to 117 when auto delay suggested by game was lower than 50 or so, movement of my player is different and it is hard for me to move and position for shots.

Only explanation I've got is that I should get used to that conditions and learn how to play always with delay 117 ms. I still can't understand why I should make playing conditions worse in case I have possibility to make connection with someone with low delay and lag.

Can you please explain with some more details what is the influence of higher delay than ping on game play ? I remeber some discussion after one update of TE 2009 when lot of people complained about sliding in movement, and you suggested us to wait for delay to stabilize or to change delay from auto to some value that is most close to half of ping value.
In these situations I am talking about opponents asking me to play with delay that is more than double higher than average ping and playing is such conditions changes game for me so much, my service percentage is worse, and also I am sending much more balls in out, also movement is different especially in changing movement direction.

Can someone of mods also try to explain this and explain is this rule that has to be applied for all tournaments matches in future, host always has to setup delay to 117ms or what ?

Thanks
Srle
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Re: Delay / ping issue again

Postby manutoo » 23 Jun 2010, 06:50

Hello,

mainly, higher the Delay is, the more delay before ur input is applied in the game.

About that 117ms rule, I don't think it exists, you should check with the Tour Mods about it.
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Re: Delay / ping issue again

Postby Srle » 23 Jun 2010, 13:57

So as I thought more value of delay = more time to react and send shot back. That is what I tried to explain to some mods, and that's why I can't understand and accept their explanation that game is faster when delay is 117 ms than when is lower than 117 ms.

I suppose ideal ratio between delay and ping should be 1:2, so if I have good connection with constant ping with someone let's say ping 90-100 ideal delay should be around 50ms. If I apply delay of 117 ms in that kind of connection that means I am forcing the game to delay every move and command for a time that is higher than time needed for that move (or command) to be transfer to my opponent trough connection. It also changes the service move, and for me makes harder to make 1st service with solid precision because i play most matches against opponents with lower delay than 117. On higher delay values I am probably pressing direction keys earlier than I should to get 1st service precision I usually have in lower delay.
That was main problem for me when I am playing against players with I can't make good connection. Now when I can play with someone I can connect with good connection they ask me to change delay and make as it is worse connection.

Problem is that it looks like that rule exists, but I can't find it officially published anywhere in forum for online tournaments, but yesterday mod told me i will have to use delay 117 in match against him in Wimbledon. Actually I understood or we will play with delay 117ms or if I don't want to play with that delay I will be disqualified.

They also told me it is because with below 117ms delay game becomes slower, and it is faster on 117 ms. I tried to explain that it is nonsense from my point of view because I can't see how game can be faster with higher delay. I am not sure that people understand in right way what is delay and what is ping.

I think you included delay few months ago in one of TE2009 updates and you made upper margin of delay higher to enable paying matches with ping higher than 250. Before that we can say that 117ms was some kind of upper margin of delay in game.

Can you please tell me directly your opinion about that, is it fair to ask people to play every match with same value of delay set on 117ms, and is there any reason to believe that game played on delay 117ms is faster than game played with delay 50ms (with same value of ping in both games).
Srle
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Re: Delay / ping issue again

Postby manutoo » 24 Jun 2010, 04:22

The Delay was formerly known as "Lag", but I changed its name a few months ago to avoid confusion with the common use of "lag" amongst the players.

Setting the Delay above the Auto-Delay can protect above a change of ping during the match (if the network conditions change & get worst). But it should be set only 16 or 33ms above the Auto-Delay. In worst case scenario, it's still possible to restart a match with a new Delay.
TE is not really intended to be fully enjoyed with 117ms of Delay, it's way too much. Max is 100ms, but for own my taste, I'd rather not go above 83ms.

And your understanding of the consequences of raising the Delay is correct.

I checked, and as far as I can tell, there's no 117ms-Delay rule now (anyway, I'd not allow it if it existed), so the Mod can't invoke it to force you to play with it.
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Re: Delay / ping issue again

Postby Srle » 24 Jun 2010, 18:53

Thanks manoo
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Re: Delay / ping issue again

Postby Stajus » 24 Jun 2010, 19:26

50 ms delay is absolutely horrible :roll: :roll: :roll: Slidy ftw. Inertia physics are not correctly modelled for this delay, however they are more realistic at delays of 100-117 :whistle: At 50 ms, changing direction takes half an hour and you can get wrong footed by anything, not only when you are defending for your life...

The game does "play" FASTER at higher delay in the range 50-117...Let's use some logic. At 50 ms delay there's more time to react, the rallies are longer in average and the movement is sometimes strange. However, changing direction is really flawed and the player seems to struggle to change the direction even for minimum distances. This clearly favours less skilled players :whistle:

Anyways, vs Tati Cornet 50-117 ms delay to me feels the same, but with some other players the game is so disgustingly "slidy" at 50 ms...117 ms is rarely slidy and thus provides better gameplay in average.
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Re: Delay / ping issue again

Postby Srle » 27 Jun 2010, 01:09

Higher delay value gives more time to player who defends i can agree about that, also gives better chances to anticipate better direction of next opponent's shot. Major problem from my point of view is not in that but in positioning and timing of commands in play.

Playing on 117 delay forces player to send commands 1/10s earlier. I can agree that is something that can be gained with practicing play in those conditions, but then anyone who plays this game against CPU (world tour or singe matches) would have much different feeling playing it on 117 ms delay, service precision is different if you press direction buttons in same time as like playing against CPU. On 50ms delay that difference is double less than in 117 ms. Positioning is also different very much etc. So anyone who likes to play this game against CPU should practice in different way to play it online. I think that ideal condition for this game would if it can be played in LAN but it is not possible. I know that every time I play with someone with good connection game is fast without sliding and problems in movement and positioning. Problems can happen if during match connection becomes worse and ping goes higher than in the beginning to the values that are high above double value of delay. In that cases as manoo said it can be reasonable to set delay 15-30 ms above one suggested by game auto delay calculated value.

There can be also difference between two matches played with same value of delay because quality of connection can be different during the match. Sliding and changing direction in movement problem from my point of view happens not because of delay value but because lag or lost packets. If avg ping value is around 100ms and delay in match around 50ms if there is no lost packets and lag shown on F4 screen is 0% then sliding is not something I can see.

My logic and the way how I imagine that is something like this. If you press left or right arrow for direction your players moves in that direction, in moments you press direction for moving game sends info about that to your opponent's PC but with delay, if that delay is higher I can't see how it can be possible for both PC's to interpret that movement as correct as possible if they are finding out for your instructions given to player with higher delay in ms. After that time between first pressing direction key and releasing direction key is probably use on other side to calculate your speed, acceleration and de-acceleration so when we are changing direction of movement it happens in small time intervals sometime parts of seconds deciding about that will we catch that ball or not, so if other side in connection receives that informations later it not sounds logic that can be shown on screen closer to correct when delay value is higher.
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Re: Delay / ping issue again

Postby Stajus » 27 Jun 2010, 14:54

Srle wrote:Higher delay value gives more time to player who defends i can agree about that, also gives better chances to anticipate better direction of next opponent's shot. Major problem from my point of view is not in that but in positioning and timing of commands in play.


I said the exact opposite for delays 50-117...For delays higher than 150 or so the game slows down and then it becomes easier to anticipate the next shot, while at 50-117 it's slightly harder to defend at higher delay as no appreciable slowdown exists - when your opponent hits a ball your movement will be 117 ms late compared to 50 ms...However, the weird sliding effect doesn't usually exist at 117 ms, making it a much better option.
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Re: Delay / ping issue again

Postby Mr.Schmith » 27 Jun 2010, 15:14

the "lag" rule does exist i experienced this at madrid and i was told that i needed to change to 117 because 50 is slow motion but practice matches in the te game itself then its 33 or something like that, but its something u just need to get used to and then ull be fine. and why it all exists is because it somehow got changed in updates and veterans here are used to the 117
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