Should the Twisted Kicked Serve be removed ?

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Should the Twisted Kicked Serve be removed ?

Postby Leena » 08 May 2009, 17:43

I have to address this here. I'm dropping it after this, no matter what the decision is. There's already been some discussion about the extreme slice serve in the Munich Thread


The extreme slice serve: Down + Up + Safe Strike.

It's completely unrealistic and unfair since you can't come close to seeing the ball when trying to return it. IRL, nobody can hit slice serves standing from the middle of the court and spin them into the stands. :roll: But, the main problem is that it's clearly an exploit because of the short range we have with the default camera.

I strongly suggest removing it. There's already the normal slice serves in the game that work fine. This serve alone has ruined a few matches online for me.

But, it's of more concern for other players. I know how to combat it now by changing my camera angle to a wider screen, but most people aren't aware of these things (and ManuTOO can't say to do so since it makes the game look like crap...) If I was a new player against someone abusing that shot, I probably wouldn't have lasted here for long because it looks silly, and plays like cheating.

Just my opinion, do what we must. But, if we decide to keep it, I'll use it when I want. :)
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Re: Should the Kicked Serve be removed ?

Postby manutoo » 08 May 2009, 19:14

I'll likely tune it down, but mainly coz of the short range of view...

In real life, I already played against someone who was able to kick his serve and make it change direction more or less like it is in the game now (maybe a bit less strong, though), and this is extremely hard to return without a good bunch of training... :sweat:
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Re: Should the Kicked Serve be removed ?

Postby Leena » 08 May 2009, 19:26

To be correct, it's not a kick serve. It's an extreme slice serve.

The kick (twist) serve, from a right-handed server's views, curves left in the air and then bounces to the right. So, in effect, it ends up being fairly straight. The point of the kick serve is that it has lots of topspin and is thus one of the safest serves one can hit. It also bounces high which troubles the returner (we've discussed that it has little if none effect in the game already...)

Here's a video of what a kick serve looks like: http://tennis.about.com/od/serve/a/servetwistvid.htm
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Re: Should the Twisted Kicked Serve be removed ?

Postby manutoo » 08 May 2009, 19:45

Actually, up + down give slice + topspin effect, so it's not an extreme slice serve, it's something else... ;)
Looking there, it seems I may have put too much slice in it (compared to the topspin effect) to reach the effect of the "American Twist/Twist serve" :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serve_(tennis)
(another possibility is that I messed up the physics of the bounce when the ball spin is twisted, I'll have to check that... :sweat: )
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Re: Should the Twisted Kicked Serve be removed ?

Postby Leena » 09 May 2009, 08:35

Yeah, there's far too much slice.

But, whatever. Do what you want as long as we can just see the ball and can hit it fairly.
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Re: Should the Twisted Kicked Serve be removed ?

Postby Guest » 11 May 2009, 05:46

OHHHH NO !!!

I say get rid of everything............and just have one button with no topspin. This would solve all the problems with anybody who wants everything they cant handle dropped. No more lobs, slices,accelerated shots, backhands, forehands,dropshots...............get rid of all of it. Then give everyone a super psychic button that tells you where your opponent will hit the ball next and how. You would be able to win every match............but honestly............I say learn how to cope and go play !!!
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Re: Should the Twisted Kicked Serve be removed ?

Postby btaylor » 11 May 2009, 09:27

Very interesting.... :whistle:

Whenever I check out other vendor's tennis games on the computer I'm NOT seeing 90 degree slice serves and sliced groundstrokes that "swerve" insanely and unrealistically all over the place...NOR am I seeing the many assorted "trick" shots and super exaggerated "topspin" that seem to permeate this TE game.... :roll:

What I AM seeing are more realistic tennis games that "look" and are "played" more or less like "real" tennis...

It seems to me that just because some players have gotten the "knack" of, and have become "experts" at perfecting these "tactics" (and I use the term loosely) that really gives them NO reason to "diss" others that would like to see the game played more "fairly" and in a more "realistic" manner... :?

Manu, I feel, is sometimes wedged "between a rock and a hard place" in regards to trying to keep EVERYONE more or less "satisfied" with the gameplay...but as the old saying goes "ya can't please ALL of the people ALL of the time"...
If he "tunes" a bit "here", he gets a complaint "there"...it's truly an unenviable position to be in and I for one "salute" him...

Dont misunderstand me here, I think Manu has created a GREAT tennis game and, through trial and error, AND with our input, is always striving to make it as realistic as possible...however, MY personal feeling is this: if you don't see it "on the tour" then it SHOULDN'T be in TE...

NOW I'm SURE I've "plucked" quite a few nerves and opened the "floodgates" for quite a few retorts...(some of 'em justifiable and some of 'em not) :wink:
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Re: Should the Twisted Kicked Serve be removed ?

Postby Leena » 11 May 2009, 21:33

Nice how the kids from the tour section always hide their identity when trolling me. It's a wonder why you can't get newer players to join. :whistle:

Dont misunderstand me here, I think Manu has created a GREAT tennis game and, through trial and error, AND with our input, is always striving to make it as realistic as possible...however, MY personal feeling is this: if you don't see it "on the tour" then it SHOULDN'T be in TE...

I agree. Manu is very fair and does his best to make this the best tennis game he can.

As for realism, I don't care so much about it. Real tennis and virtual tennis cannot match in many areas.

The problem is that the "twisted kick serve" is 100% ONLY USEFUL because the opponent cannot see the damn ball. If the camera was able to show the screen like 5 feet wider, nobody would competitively use it. It's abusing an exploit. Period.
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Re: Should the Twisted Kicked Serve be removed ?

Postby Lukas84 » 11 May 2009, 23:54

Well, I dunno if my opinion counts, but I think that it should be removed, I have seen lots of tennis games in my life, played few myself 2, and I have never-ever seen such a service, sliced with "kick", changing directions and so...not to mention how hard it is to return this serve, specialy when both player and the ball are off the screen, so to me its just unrealistic and again, I belive it should be removed
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Re: Should the Twisted Kicked Serve be removed ?

Postby btaylor » 12 May 2009, 04:27

I don't know, Leena...the "virtual Tennis" and "Topspin 2" games or whatever, seem to be fairly realistic...WITHOUT crazy spins and such...

Granted, in so much as "realism" goes, I realize that it's impossible to have a computer tennis game that is"perfectly accurate" in ALL respects, but that's no reason to not continue to "strive" in that direction...

If you don't really care about realism, then leave the game as it is (with all the stuff that people complain about...)

Maybe I misunderstand, but to me, serves that are virtually "unreturnable" because of the "short" camera angle, and shots that "swerve" all over the place perhaps "belong" in a game that is NOT intended to be as realistic as possible (given the limitations of dimension, cost efficiency, etc.)

So why worry about "fine-tuning" those "unrealistic" aspects that give some players trouble... why not just GET OVER IT (fair or not) and "adapt" to the game the way it is now...

Seems to me that the act of removing or tuning that which we feel is "unfair" or "too difficult" is on virtually the same par as removing or tuning it because it is more or less "unrealistic".) :wink:
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Re: Should the Twisted Kicked Serve be removed ?

Postby Leena » 12 May 2009, 05:31

Virtua Tennis definitely isn't realistic. :P Top Spin 3 is probably the closest of the current gen bunch.

I should clarify my realism point... there has to be a medium between arcadey play, and faithfully translating real tennis.

See the Tennis Masters Series games that were on PC and XBox. It seems they took the template from the Virtua Tennis series, but made it more realistic with much slower gameplay and more realistic movements. And they succeeded! But, even the most hardcore tennis fans agree that the game is much less enjoyable than its counterparts.

Tennis Elbow does this very well. Which is why I purchased the game and remain pleased with it.

As far as the extreme slice serve goes... *sigh*... Let's go to the bare basics of tennis here.

See ball. Hit ball.

YOU CANNOT SEE THE BALL.

YOU CANNOT ADAPT TO NOT SEEING THE BALL.

Let's randomly push buttons at empty space and hope a racket hitting ball sound happens. The first to do so wins.

We're getting into Microsoft-coined "It's not a bug, it's a feature." territory now.
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Re: Should the Twisted Kicked Serve be removed ?

Postby btaylor » 12 May 2009, 06:36

Agreed...

As far as the "other" computer games that I mentioned, I guess I got some of the names confused, but I think that you got my point... :oops:

Right now I've been playing mostly on one of Solariaint's earlier version French Open courts...

Fully 60 percent of the time when the CPU serves "wide", I'm hitting "blindly" without my player even in the picture...

I'm amazed with how many of them I'm actually able to return successfully...I guess I've "adapted", though it's no less annoying...so I DO see your point...(I THINK that he is working on this issue...)

By the way, did you receive your NEW French Open courts, or whatever?
If so, have you responded to him yet, because I think that he would like your input on the playability.. he told me that he would send one to me, but as yet I haven't received it....(seems that for the last couple of weeks he's going to send it to me TOMORROW :wink: )
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Re: Should the Twisted Kicked Serve be removed ?

Postby adner » 12 May 2009, 06:49

C`MONNNNNNNNNNN TITLE AT MY HOMETOWN THE 1ST PORTUGUESE TO DO IT... Let`s go Mariaaaaaaaaaa saved 4 or 5 set points and managed to win with my secret weapon ajdeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee


:roll:
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Re: Should the Twisted Kicked Serve be removed ?

Postby Leena » 12 May 2009, 17:31

In a match today, this serve reached new levels of suck... I've got this serve down well now, bouncing it into the stands nearly every time. What happens is the ball hits the side stands, then my opponent hits the ball back to me! And it still counts for an ace! I got 3 of those. Along with however many aces I got with a flat serve down the T when he moves forward for the "twisted shit" serve.

C`MONNNNNNNNNNN TITLE AT MY HOMETOWN THE 1ST PORTUGUESE TO DO IT... Let`s go Mariaaaaaaaaaa saved 4 or 5 set points and managed to win with my secret weapon ajdeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Yeah, Maria Sharapova/rick-alex uses this serve as well.

Good on him for admitting that he uses every trick in the game, though.
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Re: Should the Twisted Kicked Serve be removed ?

Postby manutoo » 13 May 2009, 18:10

Leena wrote:What happens is the ball hits the side stands, then my opponent hits the ball back to me! And it still counts for an ace!

do u mean that after have the ball bounced against the court side, your opponent stroke it and the point went on as everything was normal and u could hit the ball & so on ..? :shock:
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