Mana Games

[Brad1981]

Hi Manu,
I have some ideas I would like to submit for play against CPU only. The game is excellent as it is, but I figure it wouldn't hurt to ask, and besides, everything I mention can just be an "option" which can either be chosen by the user to either be used or not used (turned on or turned off).
In addition to the tiebreak thing I mentioned before, perhaps:
1) an option to edit the Stamina characteristic in the .ini so that the user can set a specific number of max accelerations (i.e. from the minimum of 5, which I think is that of the Volleyer, up to about 10, and also an unlimited option.)
2) For the Defender profile, having the user be able to set the Topspin bonus (from 0 to 20). I like the Defender profile, however I feel that the added topspin can be too "loopy" and unrealistic, even when the CPU is Defender. And since, when the CPU is a Defender, he hits a lot of topspin shots, but it doesn't seem all that realistic with the added topspin, hence the option to be able to set it to a specific value, if possible.
3) A CPU level higher than "Incredible", where the CPU hits mostly accelerations, slices, normal, and topspin shots. Right now, with "Incredible" set to 10 (highest possible level), the CPU hits a lot of softer shots when he is on the run. Maybe for the level higher than Incredible, the CPU could be able to hit faster paced shots even when he is on the run and doesn't seem to get enough preparation time. The Incredible level of TE2006 was like this, and made the CPU at that level very difficult. But at the Incredible level of TE2009, I am able to compete very well. Perhaps, even make the CPU hit even less errors at this next level in addition to having him be able to hit sweet spot while on the run. Kinda like a "Superhuman" level, but it really doesn't seem that unrealistic, since the pros in reality are like machines. As a side note: I know that I use MTRUN, but I use it just to boost the acceleration a bit. I even lower the maxspeed level down to 0.80.
Just some suggestions/options (which user can choose to use or not). And as I mentioned before, I think that the more options, the better. It adds even more variety to the great game that you have created and continue to enhance.

[Algo]

it's been even easy to play against master or incredible level for me, i got 8 perfect minutes(once, ), no errors and 24 winners , so i agree to a harder(but really harder) level than incredible

[btaylor]

I have some questions for those that feel that incredible needs to be super-incredible. First...Are you using a joystick or a keyboard? Second..How is the CPU set...volleyer, counter, defender...etc? Third...I know that Brad1981 uses some form of mtrun...Algo, how are YOU playing (with or without mtrun?) Fourth...How are the values set for the CPU's groundstrokes, volleys, speed, service, etc. (in terms of power/constistency,etc?) Do you have the CPU set everything at 50, 75, 100? I'm using a keyboard and can't figure for the life of me how to compete when incredible positively NAILS the ball constantly to the open court with accelerations. If I DON'T use mtrun, when I press MY movement keys my player SIMPLY WON'T MOVE FAST ENOUGH to even defend, let alone get COMMAND of a point. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with my reflexes, either. Even when my player is set everything on 100, I can barely return serve and I've been playing TE09 as long as any of you! What gives!? Is it MY computer? My keyboard? How the hell can you guys keep up with incredible without mtrun!? My point is, how does a human (with mortal attributes) beat a robot/cyborg with otherworldy speed/power and NO weaknesses that scarcely makes errors? It's not possible, but I sure wish I could see you guys play against incredible so I could see how you do it

[btaylor]

Also, Manu...Maybe I'm just in a bitchy mood, but why is it that your CPU players SLIDE so much?! I've seen such pro players as Chang, Cliisters, Jankovic,and Djokovic slide maybe a COUPLE of feet on hardcourt and indoor hardcourt, but in TE09 the CPU player slides as much as 10 to 15 feet it seems when on the run from sideline-to sideline. I could maybe understand if it was on clay or even grass... but HARDCOURT!? Maybe it wouldn't make any difference if the CPU player was pumping his legs while running to strike the ball, maybe in THIS game he would STILL make the distance on extremely wide balls and still kill'em. Also, I seem to notice that the human players cannot do the same slides, even when using mtrun. Why is that? I know in the early stages of the game development BOTH players were gliding all the time around the court, but as the builds progressed you tightened most of that up. Is it possible to adjust a little more or have you reached the limitations of what you can do within the budget? It seems that if you could, it would add just a little more realism to the movement. I feel that I can move my player pretty efficiently around the court (at least realistically) and find it frustrating to watch the CPU player just SLIDE all around the court to balls he maybe otherwise wouldn't get to. While I know that others want more pace, more accelerations, and more difficulty (I KNOW this, but don't really GET it) the different levels are here to enable everyone to compete where they enjoy and are most comfortable. When I have my player with everything set at 100 in skills, I feel that I should at LEAST have MOST of the advantages that the CPU player has...even at the master/incredible levels. If he slides, I too, should be able to slide! One more thing (while I'm in the mood ) The CPU player never seems to use the body serve down the middle of the service box; always he serves more or less down the T or up on the sideline. It makes it extremely hard to guess (especially at the higher levels with faster serves) It also makes it hard to ever get a weak second serve to attack to gain an advantage in the point...Also I disagree that super incredible would bare ANY resemblance at all to the pros...I've attended many pro tournaments and even hit with some satellite players and while they are most consistent and powerful when they need to be, they're really not so machine-like... In practice they may go all out for winners and such, but in a real match they focus far more on consistency and looking for the set-up...at least the more successful ones Actually it goes like this in reality...the harder and flatter you hit, generally the more unforced errors you make (unless you are in the zone!)

[manutoo]

@Brad1981 :
2) the Max Topspin is the same for all player, but the Defender reaches this max faster
3) I'll raise the Incredible for next update (the Sublevels make it unnecessary to create a new level beyond the Incredible)

@Algo :
As btaylor, I'm a bit surprised that u can beat 6/0 the Incredible level... (if I got it right from ur 24 points)
How was set your opponent ? and ur player ?
A all-skills-at-100% defender or power baseliner seems pretty indestructible for me, at least without using cheats...


@btaylor :
There's no slide, there's only missing leg animation...
So ur player & the CPU can slide as much ; to slide the most farthest, u have to run at max speed. Incredible level can run faster than your player, but other levels can't.

>> body serve down the middle
For TE2006, I got several critics that the CPU should serve mostly on the side in higher difficulty mode, so it does now. Once again, it's the Pro level which is supposed to the most realistic. Levels above will have even less serve in the middle of the square, and levels below, more.

[Brad1981]

btaylor, I use a gamepad, and have most settings for both me and CPU at 100. I lower the CPU net, I lower serve speed of both me and CPU to about 85, and I lower my speed to 75 and CPU speed to 70.

About the higher CPU level: I just felt that when playing at the Incredible level, the CPU should hit less errors and have a little bit more pace (especially when on the run), because the Incredible level in itself is supposed to be more arcade-like in the first place, I feel. (Although, in my opinion, it is realistic and not really that arcadey.) Even Manu said in a separate post, that Pro level is most realistic compared to real-life; I think he said this regarding serve placement, but I take it that it could mean rest of game as well perhaps?
Tennis at high level is a very action, pace-driven sport, and I feel that the Incredible level reflects this for the most part as it is, but I feel it can even go above that and be even more challenging. Thanks, Manu.
And about the topspin bonus for the Defender. I like the other characteristics of the Defender profile, though I feel that the topspin bonus is too much, and since it directly has an effect on gameplay, I feel that the topspin bonus should be able to be turned on and off.
Of course it's Manu's game; these are just some insights I thought I'd offer.

[btaylor]

Manu...forgive me, but I'm not sure I understand you. You said "levels above will have even less serve in the middle of the square, and levels beyond, more" Do you mean, levels above the PRO level will have less serves down the middle and levels beyond the pro level will serve more down the middle? Isn't that the same...above and beyond? Don't you mean, levels BELOW the pro level will have more serves down the middle and levels ABOVE the pro level, more? Or vice,versa? It seems when I play against the CPU set at incredible, the serves are more to the sides and down the center T, not in the middle of the square... That's why it's so hard to return 130, 140+ serves because you ALWAYS have to guess which line the seve will hit. It would seem that at the lower levels you would have more time to get to the serves, even if they are to the sidelines or center T...I'm confused p.s. Brad1981, what do you mean by lowering the CPU net? Also, do you think I might have more success with a gamepad as opposed to the keyboard?

[manutoo]

Brad1981, yup the Pro level is the most realistic one about everything.

btaylor, yup, I meant "below" not "beyond"...

I play with a gamepad, and it feels more natural for the run than using the keyboard. It's also a bit more comfortable, coz it allows to move my own body on my chair...

[btaylor]

Thanks Manu...I guess I had better just stay with the more realistic pro levels rather than getting BEAT TO DEATH by the higher levels and for ME, having to use the cheat code and running my blood pressure up fussing and cussing at the crazy incredible level As I said before, Federer and Nadal couldn't do much at the higher levels either. I suppose I'll just leave those levels to the Brad1981's of the world. Also, Manu, something curious...I had the CPU vs CPU both set on incredible, first with my player as the 'volleyer' and the regular CPU player as 'counter'...then with my CPU player as 'varied' and the regular CPU player set as 'power baseliner'. The settings were exactly the same for both players (everything on 100) and the volleyer and varied players got beat pretty handily most times. It seems that the CPU also has quite a hard time with the volley! Once again, the LOW volleys seem to have gotten him in more trouble than they should have, as they were ALWAYS weak pop-ups. It would seem that sometimes the low volleys could be made to have a little more punch to them as in real life. I seldom see the pros pop up their reflex/low volleys...rather their low volleys are usually placed either DEEP crosscourt or DEEP down-the-line, not merely set-ups to be continuously crushed back at the volleyer (assuming they CAN volley! ) I know I do pretty well with these volleys in real life and I'm surely no pro (but I am pretty effective at the net.) I know S.williamz and some others feel that at least on-line, the volleys are too easy (perhaps because of the human factor...opponents guessing wrong with their passing shot attempts) But since the computer AI is programmed to react immediately/simultaneously to whatever direction you are attempting, it's not so much anticipating, but KNOWING where you are going and getting a head start. Virtually impossible to wrong-foot. Maybe something could be done in the future when playing against the CPU, as it should be harder to run down the volleys than it is to hit them. I even watched the CPU volleyer on numerous occasions hit 6 or 7 volleys and still LOSE the point. Why is it that volleying in TE09 should be so difficult. While it shouldn't be as easy as in TE06, come on, it is still far to easy to miss easy put-aways. Besides, If the Incredible CPU volleyer has problems.....

[manutoo]

btaylor, if you want to watch the CPU vs CPU, you should do it in Pro level.
The advantages of the Incredible level are a lot higher for the one running after volleys than for the one volleying : almost instantaneous reflexes and a lot faster ==> can run after everything & anything, and hit good accelerations a lot more easily.
Also, the surface influence the volleys effectiveness.

In real life, on top level, volleyers almost completely disappeared in the past 15 years. I think this is due that at same high skills, volleying is a lot harder (and more random) than doing passing shots. The very 1st reason is that it's hard to reach the net in a comfortable situation when the pace of the rallies is too high.

[Algo]

As btaylor, I'm a bit surprised that u can beat 6/0 the Incredible level... (if I got it right from ur 24 points)
How was set your opponent ? and ur player ?

i wish i could beat him 6-0, i don't have full version so i just won those 24 points(and more including cpu's errors) at warm up, it was a volleyer with all at 100%, i can't remember how much top spin was, i think 50%, also, i'm not that good to have such a perfect day, against defender or power baseliner
ah, without mtrun, mtball or any cheats, i don't get the point to use them if then i won't be able to use them at online(i'd still not using them anyways), and with a keyboard
what i feel about the cpu players is that they are using so many soft and slice shots, that make them kind of easy to play, you should just try to not make an error and the point would be yours, because it's not too hard to get to every ball that the cpu hits

[btaylor]

Algo...I think that maybe you should try playing the Incredible CPU player in a REAL match with his level set at 10 and all his skills set at 75 or 100 to really see how easy (or not) it is to keep up without mtrun Better yet, since volleyer has more of a limit on accelerations, try setting the CPU to powerbaseliner (more accelerations) if volleyer is too easy, then hold on to your hat! Also, Manu...while I too agree that volleying has become somewhat of a lost art in pro tennis over the last decade or so, I think the push is on to develop better volleyers and all court (varied) players at that level. Thankfully, Federer, Murray and even Nadal and some others, with varying degrees of success..(Roddick comes to mind ) are starting to implement the approach shot and volley sequence to close out points. I know that in the pros it IS harder to get to net with the modern topspin groundstrokes and newer more powerful racquets without getting passed outright, but still the low volleys are not so much weak pop-up gifts that just sit there all tied up with a ribbon around them begging to be either slapped back, lobbed or put away after 5,6,7 or more volley attempts. Usually, in real tennis, if it takes over 3 volleys at ANY level you are more than likely to lose the point anyway. Even at the TE09 pro level the CPU gets to too many volleys usually. My point is not so much getting passed outright or when you hit a weak volley, rather the AMOUNT of weak volleys you wind up hitting. In real tennis, most of the time when I hit a low volley it's still a solid punch more or less with a TOUCH of underspin for control. In TE09 ALL the low volleys sound and look like miss-hits no matter how you center the ball on your strings. I feel my TE volleying is very much improved in general and if my overall skills are adequate at the pro level with or without mtrun, my volley skills should be also. Even when I become caught up in a volley rally situation and EVENTUALLY win the point, I'm thinking...WOW, this is RIDCULOUS!! While I know some online players feel the volley is too easy, it's also not so easy to pass the CPU volleyer sometimes. I feel that if you volley at a high level of efficiency, then good for you, not so good for your opponent. That's the way it is in real tennis. Stefan Edberg, Pete Sampras, Pat Rafter, and Taylor Dent didn't seem to care if their opponents DIDN'T LIKE their style of play, rather they ENJOYED the pressure they exerted on their opponents. In online TE if you can't beat a certain type of player maybe you should either practice more or simply play someone else. Conversely, if you CAN beat everyone else with your style of play consider yourself king or queen of the hill! When I play a match or set, if I'm winning, I'm not interested in keeping it competitive or enjoyable for my opponent...I'm TRYING TO WIN.... Maybe only when playing AGAINST THE CPU there could be a way to edit the CPU's counterpunching speed(running) or skills when you are at the net in order to make it more realistic without affecting his ground stroke running speed

[btaylor]

To further explain the last sentence of my previous post...It would be nice to have an option to be able to edit the CPU player's countering/court coverage/speed (especially at PRO level and higher) when you are volleying, without necessarily slowing down his GROUNDSTROKE running speed. As it is now, if the CPU's OVERALL speed is slowed down just in order to keep his net retrieval running speed more realistic, then when playing from the baseline he is slowed to the point where it is FAR too easy to hit winners on him... Using tennis court geometry, when you are in a baseline-to-baseline rally with the CPU, you generally can't hit as many severe angles as you can when you are closer to the net, so it is more natural for the CPU to be able to track down more balls from the baseline. On the other hand, when you are in control AT THE NET, it should become MUCH more difficult for the CPU to track down balls because of the the advantage you SUPPOSEDLY gain by being at the net in the first place, in terms of increased volley angles ( from more court to volley into). It's just not NATURAL or REALISTIC to be able to cover the SAME AMOUNT of court when defending from the volley attack as it is when defending from the baseline...While I know that MASTER and INCREDIBLE have been given a huge advantage in court coverage, it would be awfully nice to be able to edit THIS portion of the game for those of us that would like a more realistic volley experience when playing against the CPU. For those that are okay with the game as is, then they would have the option to keep it the way it is now. Just as Brad and probably quite a few others would like the option to play a faster more accelerated game with the CPU, there must be quite a few other folks who feel the way I do also about realism...Also, it needn't affect the tournament and online people (like S.williamz) as they would also have this option. Or, if it would be too difficult to implement in both online play and CPU play, maybe only do it in CPU play. Maybe players like Brad (and others) would feel better about utilizing the volleys. Between having this option and hopefully tweaking the low volleys just a bit more this would make the game "OUTA SIGHT"!! PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE Manu, think about it and figure a way to make it happen...I KNOW you can do it...YOU ARE A GENIUS p.s. when you asked in your topic about future gaming endeavors/interests for ideas, we can ALWAYS think of little improvements/fine tuning to hopefully keep you interested and mentally stimulated in TE... Besides, if you continue to tweak and adjust (Lord knows you've already done Sooo Much and we do appreciate it) this may be come the COOLEST computer tennis game in the history of the WORLD...dare I say THE UNIVERSE!!!

[Brad1981]

This has been on my mind for a while, but I think me wanting a little bit of a faster paced game has to be primarily due to a certain factor of a couple shots. I didn't notice it much (if at all) in TE2006, but it seems to be present in TE2009. It seems that a lot of slower paced shots seem to float, as if being held back by air resistance, hanging in the air longer than normal. The short shot (non-accelerated version) is the only shot that seems to ALWAYS have this happen. The only other time I notice this is that when the CPU is running and then hits either a normal shot or an acceleration shot, he has a tendency to hit this slower paced, and the ball can sometimes seem to "float" a little bit. If somehow, there was a way to put more "gravity"/dip on the ball for these shots that are supposed to be slower than a full sweet-spot strike (due to positioning), it would help I think. I notice this mainly for CPU player, and not much for my player.