Handsoff! and Monica... and a modest proposal

General discussions about the 1st version of Tennis Elbow Manager

Handsoff! and Monica... and a modest proposal

Postby Ibarrategui » 02 Sep 2008, 11:44

I've made one more handsoff women game, with my "improvements". Sanchez and Novotna are clearly better (I put singles ranking for them), Serena (much more than Venus) wins a lot, but I have forgotten to lower the end of 90's and 00's rankins of Monica Seles...
Hum : she wins 16 slams... 6 Wimbledon and 4 french. If she win one or two Wimby, OK! But... 6? She never win one in reality.

Each time I make a handsoff, Seles wins too many Wimbledon. This the main problem of my handsoff.

Seles before 93 is a great top player, a number one.
But Seles after, became number one by the will of WTA. I think her rankings must be lowered
1995 : she could be 3 or 4 (Graf, then Sanchez, Martinez and Seles)
1996 : she could be 3 (Graf, then Sanchez, then Seles)
1997 : she could be 4 (Hingis, Novotna, Coetzer, Seles)
1998 : she could be 5 (Davenport, Hingis, Novotna, Sanchez, Seles)
1999 : she could be 5 (Hingis, Davenport, S.Williams, Graf, then Seles V.Williams and Martinez ex aequo)

2000 => I've made some rankings in another topic , for me she's 4
2001 =>8 or 9
2002 => 7 or 8

With these modifications, I think that Monica will came at her real rank.


Another question
Why are some clay players than Henin or Seles better on grass than on clay????

In men handsoff, 1990 : Edberg wins FO... and Muster wins Wimby against Gomez!!! (??????). Muster has never won a match in Wimby!


Proposal :

is this possible to create a love/hate rate of the different surfaces?

For THomas Muster, it will be
RA : 55
CL : 95
GR : 10
HD : 50
IN : 45

For Andy Roddick
RA : 50
CL : 15
GR : 85
HD : 75
IN : 60
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Postby Ibarrategui » 02 Sep 2008, 13:01

I've made some new changes : keep Seles rankings but up his "lift" and lower some stats.

I will try : I hope it will be more realist
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Postby Ibarrategui » 02 Sep 2008, 15:55

Ok, Seles is too weak now :roll: :oops:

And some little changes for Martinez have too many consequences!!!

=> I erase some of my changes and made new moderate changes for Seles, Martinez, Novotna and Pierce

I've put the real dates of birth of Maleeva sisters.
I've changed the rankings of Jane Chi, Angeliki Kanellopoulou, Pampoulova and Sara Gomer in mid 90's : they were not at the same rankings as the wta.ini file say. I think manu forgot "singledouble = 0,5 or 0,75" for these players.

I have increased Venus notes and lowered Serena notes => in my handsoff, Serena won 12 slams and Venus only one. I will see what happen in a second serious handsoff

I changed the "singledouble" of Navratilova, who plays well in 1990 and 1991 singles!
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Postby Ibarrategui » 02 Sep 2008, 17:18

IT ROCKS!!!

Now, my wta player file is realistic.

With my files, in 2002, Serena made a little slam.

In 2005, Henin wins AO, Mauresmo FO, Venus Wimby and CLijsters US... Venus and Serena are at their real level, Henin too, Davenport is able to reach some slam finals but win 2-4 slams in a career.
Seles doesn't win slams in 00's.

I've not made a full handsoff between 1990 and 2005 but for 00's I see some realistic results.
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Postby Curtis » 02 Sep 2008, 19:40

Congratulations on the effort you are putting into this! :shock:

After you complete your revisions, please post the final consolidated file for the rest of us to take advantage of. Trying to piece together what you are doing from a dozen posts spread through four threads is not very effective.

Will you attempt the same thing for doubles next? I find that (in the WTA) the supposedly best doubles teams are much too easily defeated. My girls tend to be doubles specialists, but most computer teams seem to be made up of one excellant singles player with one poor (not neccessarily poorly ranked) singles player.

Don't the women have doubles teams that stay together for a long time and are very successful, even though neither player is good at singles? The ATP does.
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Postby Ibarrategui » 03 Sep 2008, 08:32

Before I'm sure the wta file is operationnal, I want to put the last handsoff with slam results. First name AO winner, second name FO winner, third name wimby winner, fourth name US winner (in bold, the girls wins in my handsoff and in reality)

1990 : Graf / Graf / K.maleeva (grr) / Sabatini
1991 : Graf / Seles / Seles / Seles
1992 : Seles / Fernandez / Seles / Seles
1993 : GRaf / Graf / Graf / Graf
1994 : Sanchez / Graf / Graf / Sanchez
1995 : Sanchez / GRaf / Graf / Graf
1996 : Graf / Graf / Graf / Graf
1997 : Sanchez / Hingis / Hingis / Seles
1998 : Pierce / Hingis / Seles / Graf
1999 : Hingis / Davenport / Davenport / Davenport
2000 : Hingis / Seles / S.Williams / Davenport
2001 : V.Williams / S.Willliams / V.Williams / Capriati
2002 : S.Williams / S.Williams / S.WIlliams / S.WIlliams
2003 : Mauresmo / S.Williams / V.Williams / Hénin
2004 : Sharapova / S.Williams / V.Williams / Hénin
2005 : Mauresmo / Hénin / V.Williams / Clijsters
2006 : Mauresmo / Hénin / Mauresmo / Hénin
2007 : Clijsters / Kuznetsova / Sharapova / Hénin


As you can see, some results (Graf domination, Venus at Wimbledon, Mauresmo) are realistic.
I know that I don't want to have results exactly parallel to the reality. For me, the most important is to have results which are realistic : Kuznetsova could win a french, S.Williams could make a grand slam, Graf may win 14-15 slams...
=>
Graf wins 16 slams in this handsoff, she wins 14 in reality between 90 and 99
Seles wins 9 slams / 8 in reality
K.Maleeva 1 / 0
Sabatini 1 / 1
Fernandez 1 / 0 (but she reach 2 finals in reality=> it's realistic she would win a slam)
Sanchez 3 / 4
Hingis 5 / 5
Pierce 2 / 1
Davenport 3 / 4
S.Williams 8 / 8
V.Williams 5 / 6
Capriati 1 / 2
Mauresmo 4 / 2
Hénin 6 / 7
Sharapova 2 / 3
Clijsters 2 / 1
Kuznetsova 1 / 1




But as you can see, I have always some problems : Navratilova is not competitive in 1990-91 (because she have doubles rankings in wta files, I lower his coeff singledoubles but it is not really effective), Katerina Maleeva is able to win slams, S.Williams is too strong in FO, Henin is stronger at the US Open than at the FO, Seles is not as strong than I hope at the FO...

When I finish, I will post a file with my changes.

For the doubles, it is really difficult. In 90's Novotna, Sanchez, G.Fernandez and Zvereva were the best players. But in my files, to be realistic, I put the singles rankings of Sanchez and Novotna => they play doubles but not at the same level as before... I don't think that I have a solution for this.

Then your last question : WTA history of doubles is not the same than the ATP one. You have a lot of good singles players which dominated the doubles in 70's (King), 80's (SHriver, Navratilova), 90's (Novotna, Sanchez, Zvereva). Even the specialists were good singles players (Ann Smith, Katie Jordan, Gigi Fernandez), able to reach slam semifinals.
The last great player to play singles and doubles was Martina Hingis. The Williams are able to win any slam they play, but they do not play oftently doubles.

For 10 years, you have some doubles specialist who emerged : Ruano-Pascual, Suarez, Stosur, Stubbs, Raymond, Cara Black, Liezel Huber. They play few singles match (except Suarez who reach FO semis in 2004).
But, contrary to the men, you have no Paul Hanley, Andy Ram or Mike Bryan in women doubles => women doubles specialists play in singles, or have played in singles before if they are getting old. And singles good players as Safina, Dechy, Groenefeld, Sugiyama were able to win slams...

To synthetize the wta/atp distinction : Liezel Huber's career is an exception, Mike Bryan's career is a rule...
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Postby manutoo » 18 Sep 2008, 09:36

Hello,

no, it won't have static surface skills for the players. The success on different surfaces should come from the skills... It's important for the gameplay, coz else, the coached player could beat or lose against other players with identical skills, coz the static surface skill would make everything...

Anyway, I did some tuning with the Top Spin skill, and now Sampras has very low chance to win RG, while Muster hardly reach the QF of Wimbledon. It's still not perfect, but it's a lot less shocking.

I also lowered a bit the double specialists (again)...

You can download the new version from the website (Windows only for now)...
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Postby Guest » 19 Sep 2008, 01:00

Can you share your files I want realistic results too :? :cry:
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Postby PattySchnyder » 19 Sep 2008, 01:14

do you mind posting your wta player file so we can test too?
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Postby PattySchnyder » 19 Sep 2008, 01:41

This is with the new version GS winners same as the one in previous posts

AO/RG/W/US


1998:Hingis/Hingis/Hingis/Seles
1999:S.Williams/Seles/Davenport/Hingis
2000:Hingis/Davenport(?)/Davenport/Davenport
2001:V.Williams/Hingis/Davenport/Hingis
2002:Dokic(?)/Hingis/V.Williams/Seles
2003:Klijsters/Mauresmo/Mauresmo/Henin
2004:Mauresmo/Schnyder(?)/Davenport/Mauresmo

I will add on to it later but Serena only winning one slam? and same with Venus ? Schnyder winning a slam is possible but unlikley Dokic wining a slam? and Davenport winning 5 GS titles is unlikley and her winning the French?

changes need to be done
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Postby Ibarrategui » 19 Sep 2008, 09:28

Main problem with Davenport is her ranking : she was oftently a year end number one without winng slams. I've changed a lot of things in my data. But I have some irrealistic results at french open, and I need to improve this. But if you want, I can post my version. Do you know some website where I can upload a file, then post the link here?

Before, I will improve some things. I've three majors problems :
1/ the powerful baseliner are really good on clay. But for me, Seles or Pierce were already good clay players... not Davenport and Sharapova.
2/ one or two points only in backhand or in volley change the results : it is difficult to reach what I want
3/ the main problem is the year-end ranking, then the best ranking, then three or four percentages (as coldblood, concentration, serve, net presence). In one of my versions, Venus Williams had won 11 slams at the end of 2007. Now she wins 5-8 slams (mainly at Wimbledon). I have some difficulties with Henin : she must be stronger on clay. Clijsters wins 1-2 slams, Pierce 2-3, Mauresmo too, Graf finished with 20 slams (I add the 87,88,89 slams with my simulating slams), Sanchez with 3-5, Seles with 10.

One or two things that really pleased me :
-> Pierce won Australian and French
-> Serena is able to make a slam in 2002
-> In my last sim, Myskina wins One Slam : FO 2004!!
-> at the end of 2007 : Sharapova has won 2-3 slams
etc...

But I think this file need more improvements
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Postby PattySchnyder » 19 Sep 2008, 21:00

megaupload.com you can upload and post the link here

and manutoo will you fix the f ile's so we can get more realistic results?
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Postby manutoo » 20 Sep 2008, 06:46

yup, I'll likely include Ibarrategui's mods...
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Postby Ibarrategui » 21 Sep 2008, 19:58

Ok, I will work on the wta database this week and try to post that with megaupload!
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Postby Ibarrategui » 23 Sep 2008, 14:08

I've made some work to the file. And two more sims.
Now, Henin is able to win 4-5 French Opens between 2002 and 2007! I've some changes to make, but it begins to be interesting
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