How to update courts speed according to official speed?

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How to update courts speed according to official speed?

Postby obdz » 11 Mar 2018, 20:51

Hi,

Here are official courts' measured speed rating(attached). But how can I implement it into the game by editing court.ini?

The formula they used is CPI(speed rating)= 100(1-f)+150(0.81-e)
f is friction
e is elasticity; same the value in "court.ini"

Now I did research on this forum for a formula, but all I found out is that:
f=3.5*(1-u)/(1+e); by mantuo
u is the friction in the "court.ini"
e is the elasticity in "court.ini".

But to apply this, I need to know at least one value of "e", "u", or "f". But I have none of those (none of them is available publicly), so I assumed that "e" is same as the value set before, but then I got a very high friction amount reaching 0.70! And the fastest court now in game has 0.605 friction.

So, can these official speed be implemented? How?
Or is TE physics different than real world that it is not possible to implement?
And if anyone can get one of the values "e", "u", or "f", can you provide them please?

I would appreciate a help.

Thank you
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Re: How to update courts speed according to official speed?

Postby obdz » 11 Mar 2018, 20:57

Also, if you apply this formula for vanilla clay "u" and "e" values, as such:

CPI = 100*(1-(3.5*(1-0.56)/(1+0.86)))+150(0.81-0.86) = 9.7

The lowest measured clay court in real life is 20.9(madrid open). So 20.9 - 9.7 ≃ 11.19!! That is a huge difference!
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Re: How to update courts speed according to official speed?

Postby Burned » 11 Mar 2018, 22:05

I've been looking for a proper formula for a while ! I'm glad to see someone else interested in that.

Manifestly, there's a problem with the formula here. I've applied the formula for my fast clay (friction : 0.57, elasticity : 0.83. I'm a huge fan of fast surfaces) and I get 14.19. Impossible, that's not the CPI !

Feel free to PM me if you find out something worthwhile or need help.

Burned
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Re: How to update courts speed according to official speed?

Postby manutoo » 12 Mar 2018, 12:40

Initial topic : topic15-2026.php .

According to here http://www.itftennis.com/technical/cour ... -pace.aspx :
µ = (vix - vfx) / (viy * (1 + e))
(image is barely readable, especially on the "viy", but I guess it's this one)
e = Elasticity from court.ini

I'm going to convert the equation to use Friction from court.ini, labeling it F :
µ = (vix - vix * F) / (viy * (1 + e))
µ = (vix / viy) * (1 - F) / (1 + e)
vix / viy = 1 / tan(16°) = ~3.5
note: 16° is the angle they send the ball within their tests
µ = 3.5 * (1 - F) / (1 + e)
so F = 1 - µ * (1 + e) / 3.5

This gives a CPI :
Clay = 9.7
Grass = 36

I think the difference with real life courts comes from the slightly inaccurate ball physics ; ie: in TE2013, the clay feels right, but in TE4, it seems a tiny bit off as I have fixed the little ball physics inadequacies, so it means I'll have to do a small rehaul of each court bounce parameters... :blackeye:

Another thing to consider is that real life court speeds have probably been tuned a lot since 10 years ago, when I set the bounces for TE2009 courts.
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Re: How to update courts speed according to official speed?

Postby obdz » 13 Mar 2018, 15:25

@Burned Sure.

@manutoo
1- So an 11.2 CPI difference (20.9-9.7) in clay is only due to ball physics? The ball physics in game are realistic enough for me to play the game. :)

2- How can I update the court speed? What is considered to be very fast/fast/medium/slow/very slow? By how much can I manipulate the friction and elasticity according to the official CPI and remain within realstic speed?

3- Australian Open use a "Plexicushion", which is not known to be very fast, but the past 2 years it was the second fast surface of all surfaces. On the contrary, IW use a usual slow "Plexicushion" surface. How can I set different parameters for these two? Same for other surfaces, like indoor hard or greenset(paris and nitto), outdoor hard (shanghai), Decoturf(us open, Canada and Cincinnati), Laykold(Miami), and different clays(Madrid, Monte, Rome and Roland Garros)?

4- Regarding TE4, that is nice to know that the real ball physics are going to be implemented. :)
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Re: How to update courts speed according to official speed?

Postby obdz » 13 Mar 2018, 17:39

@manutoo I think this PDF document might be helpful.

5) Document
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Re: How to update courts speed according to official speed?

Postby Burned » 13 Mar 2018, 19:36

I've done tons of combinations of "friction" and "elasticity" values (on court.ini files) to get closer to the real surfaces.

I edited them to get the number of aces, the ball speed, and the real feeling that I can notice on real courts.

That requires a proper knowledge of the real courts stats and physics.

I've been studying that for a while, including my personal preferences. I reckon the surfaces on TE 2013 with the maxou patch are pretty damn SLOW !!

The speed of the surfaces on the real world tour has been reduced those past few years, surely to make sure no "unknown player" could make the final or the semi final (surely because the unknown players are not generating enough money and do not get people interested). But on the recent patches, the speed has been further more reduced. I say different !

So I got them a bit faster, taking the different surfaces (fast plexicushion, plexipave, decortuf, greenset, clay ...) into account.

If you're interested I can give you my physics parameters so you can try and make your own idea.

Regards,

Burned
Last edited by Burned on 14 Mar 2018, 00:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to update courts speed according to official speed?

Postby amg986 » 13 Mar 2018, 23:28

Burned, please post them! I’m really interested.
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Re: How to update courts speed according to official speed?

Postby Burned » 14 Mar 2018, 00:37

I'm glad to share my physics parameters with you all.

I sent you a private message so we can talk about that without annoying everyone here.

Feel free to reach me

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Re: How to update courts speed according to official speed?

Postby manutoo » 14 Mar 2018, 10:50

obdz,
1) for most part, yes, but likely not only (it'd be a bit long to get into all details :fear: )

2) you can test out everything by yourself ; just follow the chart you posted and the equations I put

3) You can create new courts by copy/paste the court folder ; check HowToMod for more details

5) interesting stuff on ball & courts specs... :)


Burned,
I'd be curious to see your court tuning and I'm sure other people (especially court Modders) would be interested as well... :yes:
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Re: How to update courts speed according to official speed?

Postby obdz » 14 Mar 2018, 12:52

@Burned I am trying tune the parameters, but I am finding a bit of a difficulty since the possibilities are endless, but I think that I will start by setting the fastest and slowest parameters, and then go from there. But that on its own is challenge.
So yes, I am interested in your own finding.
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Re: How to update courts speed according to official speed?

Postby obdz » 15 Mar 2018, 20:41

I am not a mathematician, but I tried to develop a formula to calculate the "F", i.e. friction. As for the "e", i.e. elasticity, I kept it the same value used in "Maxuo Patch", because (1) "F" has higher effect than "e". (2) I see the values of "e" somewhat acceptable.

So what I did is that I left "RG" parameters untouched, which are from "Maxuo Patch", and I based the formula on it, because I feel that RG game-play is very close to reality.

This is what I could do:

(0.78261*y-4.56522)*(((|-16.4348+0.78261*y|)/(100))+1)=100*(1-(3.5*(1-x)/(1+z)))+150(0.81-z)

Rearranging it to find x, gives:

x=0.285714(1+z)(((0.78261y−4.56522)(​∣(0.78261y−16.4348)/100∣+1)/100)−((3(0.81−z)−1)/2))+1

Where x is the "F" of the court, z is the "e" of the court, and y is the official CPI of the court found in the attachments of the first post.
Pay attention to the brackets and absolute value.

And these are the court's parameters I was able to find using this formula: ( I have tested none in game)

[Physics] // Clay I (RG)
Friction = 0.567
Elasticity = 0.852

[Physics] // Clay II (Madrid)
Friction = 0.566635
Elasticity = 0.852

[Physics] // Clay III (Rome)
Friction = 0.571665
Elasticity = 0.852

[Physics] // Clay IV (Monte-Carlo)
Friction = 0.585561
Elasticity = 0.852

[Physics] // Grass (Wimbledon)
Friction = 0.612492
Elasticity = 0.788

[Physics] // Hard Plexicushion (AO)
Friction = 0.663941
Elasticity = 0.826

[Physics] // Hard Plexipave (IW)
Friction = 0.579963
Elasticity = 0.82

[Physics] // Indoor hard (GreenSet) (Paris)
Friction = 0.629282
Elasticity = 0.813

[Physics] // Indoor hard (GreenSet) (ATP Finals)
Friction = 0.651535
Elasticity = 0.813

[Physics] // Hard Laykold (Miami)
Friction = 0.594616
Elasticity = 0.82

[Physics] // Blue-Green Cement (DecoTurf) (U.S. Open)
Friction = 0.622183
Elasticity = 0.818

[Physics] // Blue-Green Cement (DecoTurf) (Canada)
Friction = 0.625484
Elasticity = 0.819

[Physics] // Blue-Green Cement (DecoTurf) (Cincinnati)
Friction = 0.610809
Elasticity = 0.818

[Physics] // Blue-Green Cement (DecoTurf) (Shenghai)
Friction = 0.663310
Elasticity = 0.818

As you can see, Shenghai, ATP Finals, and AO, have very high values. But that is the best I could do. Previous calculations gave me even higher values reaching 0.71!!
So I may have to tune the elasticity for these courts in order to balance things out.

What do you think?
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Re: How to update courts speed according to official speed?

Postby Burned » 15 Mar 2018, 22:12

So you mainly increased the "friction" values.

I worked mainly on reducing the elasticity

I'm going to test your values out
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Re: How to update courts speed according to official speed?

Postby obdz » 16 Mar 2018, 19:30

Elasticity is the next step, although I don't think reducing it will help reduce very high friction values.

For example: Shanghai is hard court, and hard courts can go as low as 0.79 for elasticity, because lower it would be grass, and hard is different than grass. And the friction for Shanghai at 0.79 elasticity is 0.647015, and it is the lowest value possible for friction and elasticity for a hard court with a CPI of 42.9.
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Re: How to update courts speed according to official speed?

Postby Burned » 16 Mar 2018, 19:50

Yup, and I reduced the elasticity of both grass and hard because 0.78 sounds to be a bit too high for grass, the way I consider the surfaces.

I'm not fond of the grass nowadays : The bounce is too high, so grass doesn't make a big deal of difference with hard.

I'd like every types of tennis to be able to exist on the tour.

Any feed back of your friction values so far ?
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