Mana Games

[saviola07]

Hi Manu, hi everyone,

Have you ever thought of switching the gameplay to a full analogic mode? I mean, not using any A, B, X or Y buttons anymore and controling all the shot types with the joysticks?

I tried to imagine such a gameplay and to adapt it to the TE4's mechanics.

Basically, this gameplay is based on three main principles:

1. All shot types are performed with the right joystick (and the R2 and L2 triggers).
2. The direction of the strikes is determined by the angle of inclination of the right joystick.
3. The left joystick is only used to move the avatar and perform the serve ball throws.

Of course, playing with the keyboard would no longer be possible ... But it's a choice.

The interest of such a gameplay would be to increase the sensations of real tennis by performing movements with the right joystick that match the real tennis movements. I have no idea if it would actually increase the sensations of playing TE4, but I would be very interested to explain more in details this gameplay and to hear your opinion about it

[manutoo]

Hello,

I'm not sure but it seems that your #2 would remove the timing element of the game. Or you want to make circles with it all the time to simulate our arm movement to strike the ball ?

At this point, it's unlikely that I'm going to change the control scheme. You need something to control : left/right direction, power, spin, depth, and likely normal/lob/drop. Plus something that evokes the body coordination to the ball (ie: usually calling timing, but I think "timing" has a way too generic meaning).

[saviola07]

Or you want to make circles with it all the time to simulate our arm movement to strike the ball ?

--> Yes and no !

To hit a normal strike, you just have to hold the right joystick (RJ) down in the diagonale of the desired direction. The longer you hold it down before hitting the ball, the more precise the shot will be. Just as currently. But the direction is already "selected" when preparing the shot. Which is, at least to me, more representative of a real shot : you give a direction to your shot instead of "adding" left or right effect to it.

If you want to hit special strikes, in this case you need to move the RJ before hitting the ball. But you still have to pull it down before making your movements. And the principle "The longer you hold it down, the more precise the shot will be" remains valid.

So, to hit an acceleration, you need to move the RJ forward before hitting the ball (in the desired direction, obviously). The faster you move, the faster the ball goes.
To hit a short strike, you need to move the RJ forward, but halfway compared to the acceleration strike. You stop in the initial position. And the speed of your movement will determine if it's a short acceleration or just a short strike.
To add spin to you strike, you need to make a quarter circle (or more if you want more spin) motion outward (to the right for a forehand, to the left for a backhand (for a right handed player)) before hitting the ball. Again, the faster you move, the stronger your shot is. This outward motion kind of simulates the racket motion.
To hit a slice, you need to make a half circle motion inward. If you want to hit a short crossed slice, we can imagine that you need to make only a quarter circle motion (because you need less depth than a straight slice).
To hit a drop shot, you need to make a full circle motion inward (a drop shot is somewhat like a very strong slice).
To hit an aggressive lob, you need to make a full circle motion outward (a lob is somewhat like a very big spin).
And to hit a defensive lob, it's like a normal strike, but you just have to hold the left trigger.

I don't have any idea if all of this is technically feasible (recording the RJ motion, its speed, the angles, etc, and transcribe it to the shots). But I'm convinced that it would be fun to play it!

At this point, it's unlikely that I'm going to change the control scheme.

Well, I think I fully understand But I really wanted to share these ideas. I can't help thinking about it and whether it's non sense or not. Because when we think of tennis games (or sport games in general), we still play the same way as in the 90s. We just added more buttons, but there hasn't been that much evolution in the way we control our characters (especially according the double use of the left joystick: moving the player AND "selecting" a direction). And despiste the fact that you managed to create a f****** great gameplay (I really take great pleasure in playing TE4), the different moves, which are the essence of sport, are missing (of course I'm not talking about the movements on the court). For example, the difference between performing a spin or a slice is important. And if there is a way to transcribe such a difference to a higher level than just switching the buttons, it would be just amazing

So, thanks for reading me, thanks for your previous answer, and most of all, thank you for your incredible work!

[manutoo]

Ok, I see better what you want to do.

I have my right thumb already tired just reading it...
More seriously, I indeed think that all this circling might be hard on the thumb.

Technically, I have been surprised by the low precision of the analog stick range on my Xbox controller. The direction is fine, but the distance from the center is silly (ie: non-linear) ; that's why I put a high Dead Zone by default. This might impair your system a bit. Maybe it could work after some kind of calibration, though.

And thanks for the praise.

[saviola07]

Ok. Low precision on the analog stick range seems a difficult problem to face, indeed. But if the direction is fine, maybe there's still a possibility to imagine right-analog-stick-based controls!

For example, we can imagine that for the normal/defensive shots, along with the triggers, we keep my initial idea of normal shots (i.e., holding the right analog stick down in the diagonal of the desired direction). It would look like:

Normal strikes: right analog stick down
Short strikes: right analog stick down + R1
Slices: right analog stick down + L1
Defensive lobs: right analog stick down + L2
Drop shots: right analog stick down + R2

For the other shots (the attacking shots), we switch from holding the analog stick down to holding the analog stick up, aiming directly at the desired area of the court. It would look like:

Accelerations: right analog stick up
Short accelerations: right analog stick up + R1
Aggressive lobs: right analog stick up + L2

And for the serve:

Adding spin: left analog stick down (as currently)
Adding slice: left analog stick up (as currently)
Normal serves: right analog stick down
Safe serves: right analog stick down + L1
Strong serves: right analog stick up

I truly believe that controling the direction with the right analog stick could bring something new, or at least something interesting! One of the situations that reinforces this idea for me is when your opponent hits a heavy cross-court shot so that you have to hit your shot outside of the limits of the court. In that case, with the current controls, if you want to try a crazy down-the-line forehand, you have to press the right arrow, more or less as if you were hitting the ball from the center of the court. But in reality, and its precisely what makes this shot so difficult (along with the height of net, and the fact that you're rushing on the ball, of course ), you still have to cross your shot, but with a very subtle adjustment, so that the ball bounces as close as possible to both the baseline and the sideline. So, the direction of your shot is still in the right-to-left diagonal, and not in the other way round! And with a directional system based on the right analog stick, such a logic would be preserved. (I created a PowerPoint slide to illustrate it, but as a new user I cannot post it ) What do you think?

Obviously, such changes would alter the mechanics of the gameplay. I'm specifically thinking of cross-courts shots and the use of short and normal strikes. With the current controls, given that we mainly adjust the gap between the ball and the sideline, the difference between a normal strike and a short strike is basically how far from the baseline the ball bounces. The consequence of such a system is that the type of shot we play (normal or short) is not decisive on whether the ball is IN or OUT. Indeed, only the amount of "left" or "right" we apply to our shot matters. On the other hand, with a right-analog-stick-based system, the type of the shot we play would be a key factor in the outcome of cross-courts shots. Given that we apply a direction to our strike and not an amount of "left" or "right", the fault will depend on the depth of our shot, that is to say, on the type of shot we play. The reason is obviously because for a same direction, a short strike will be IN and a long strike will be OUT (again, I created a nice PowerPoint slide ...).

So, in such a system, the use of short strike and normal strike, depending on the direction applied, will be decisive.

Well, that's it. I'm not sure if I made my point clear, but thank you for reading me. And I hope you'll be convinced

[manutoo]

Sorry for the delay to answer you : I was super taken chasing bug on the PlayStation. :fea:r

It's not uninteresting, but you can do the same with the current left/right aiming by making it influence the strike angle instead of an aiming target on the opposite side.

Anyway, I'm not going to change anything now (except maybe do some little tries on the service, so we feel more implicated in its execution).

[saviola07]

Hi,
Thanks for the answer. And no worries about the delay, of course.

you can do the same with the current left/right aiming by making it influence the strike angle

Sorry if it's a dumb question, but is it already the case?

[manutoo]

No, as you noted above, the aiming zone doesn't change on left/right when you change the strike.

[saviola07]

Ok thanks. My English is sometimes not that good. So I’m not sure if I understand it well.