Petition AGAINST ridiculous 2nd serve percentage.

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Re: Petition AGAINST ridiculous 2nd serve percentage.

Postby adner » 17 Aug 2010, 22:08

manutoo wrote:There's no reason to lower the % of 2nd serve and not on 1st serve (except maybe by a low % to simulate some stress), so it's either both or none...
Another possibility would be to count the 2nd serve as an acceleration if it's done with B1+B2...

As I said, there is a reason and I gave you the reason - the double fault percentage is just so low that it's ridiculous.
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Re: Petition AGAINST ridiculous 2nd serve percentage.

Postby Roger Fan » 21 Aug 2010, 11:46

I agree with Manutoo.all u guys are sick...2 double faults in a match is far from realism WTF?
In men's tennis we find almost like that.yesterday Roger did 1 DF in his 2set match.its real tennis.so i say game is realistic in serve %.
adner it becomes 5 to 10 Dfs according to u... which is just terrible/it looks like Dinara Safina tennis :annoyed: ....so many damn DFs.simply worthless WTA tennis.i hate that.but i just watch it to see lovely girls like Sharapova ':D ofcourse she too has crappy serve XD :fear:
However talking about realism in game,i shud say "getting line serves even on 2nd serve" looks awful....well i wrote my opinion in "Suggestions for upcoming updates".i hope Manutoo checks them :thinking:
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Re: Petition AGAINST ridiculous 2nd serve percentage.

Postby adner » 21 Aug 2010, 17:02

Roger Fan wrote:I agree with Manutoo.all u guys are sick...2 double faults in a match is far from realism WTF?
In men's tennis we find almost like that.yesterday Roger did 1 DF in his 2set match.its real tennis.so i say game is realistic in serve %.
adner it becomes 5 to 10 Dfs according to u... which is just terrible/it looks like Dinara Safina tennis :annoyed: ....so many damn DFs.simply worthless WTA tennis.i hate that.but i just watch it to see lovely girls like Sharapova ':D ofcourse she too has crappy serve XD :fear:
However talking about realism in game,i shud say "getting line serves even on 2nd serve" looks awful....well i wrote my opinion in "Suggestions for upcoming updates".i hope Manutoo checks them :thinking:


Read again what I am saying. I think it's completely justified for a player to do 10 double faults per set if he/she goes for 200kmph second serves. Literally noone in the top tour goes for such second serves and that's what I want to prevent. It's sad that person managing this game is so stubborn in so many cases - I guess Manutoo would require the Queen Elisabeth to confirm the definition of a winner to change it so it would suit the common usage of this word.
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Re: Petition AGAINST ridiculous 2nd serve percentage.

Postby Stajus » 21 Aug 2010, 17:26

Alright, so assuming 77%, or whatever it was :D...Let's take a fictional player who risks the 2nd serve all the time. The chance of hitting the first serve OUT is 23% and the chance of hitting both 1st and risky 2nd serves OUT is (0.23 x 0.23) x 100% ~ 5.3%...So in 100 "double 1st serve" attempts, one will only double fault 5-6 times. So yeah, I have to agree, it's absolutely ridiculous :lol: :lol: :lol: The 1st serve should be kept as it is, and the acceleration second serve should either be disabled or have a chance of going in way lower than 77%, I'd say about 40%...if someone really has the guts to risk they might hit a good one still...
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Re: Petition AGAINST ridiculous 2nd serve percentage.

Postby manutoo » 22 Aug 2010, 05:16

so adner & Stajus, could you explain me why in real life someone who's able to put 77% of serves in on his 1st serve wouldn't be able to put 77% of serves in on his 2nd serve, assuming he hits it at the same speed ? :thinking:
As I stated in previous post, I only see the stress changing that %, but not by much.
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Re: Petition AGAINST ridiculous 2nd serve percentage.

Postby Togtdyalttai » 22 Aug 2010, 05:41

manutoo wrote:so adner & Stajus, could you explain me why in real life someone who's able to put 77% of serves in on his 1st serve wouldn't be able to put 77% of serves in on his 2nd serve, assuming he hits it at the same speed ? :thinking:
As I stated in previous post, I only see the stress changing that %, but not by much.


In this case, I think realism should be sacrificed for better gameplay. By the way, you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who puts in 77% of serves in real life. 60% is a good number for most, and even people who don't go for much usually don't get over 70. Even with 70% in, that would result in 9% double faults, which would be a bit more realistic. 65 would be better, but if you get that low then the first serve percentage would probably be too low with the occasional wide fault. Hence why it'd be better to have the percentage of b1+2 serves in lowered only on second serves, as Stajus and Adner have suggested.
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Re: Petition AGAINST ridiculous 2nd serve percentage.

Postby manutoo » 22 Aug 2010, 07:26

Tog,
http://2009.wimbledon.org/en_GB/scores/ ... index.html
70% for Roddick in Final.
75% for Fed & Roddick in Semi.
I saw Nadal near 80% in some of his matches.
In TE, if you miss 1 serve by your left/right aiming every 12 serves (ie: approximately every 2 serve games), you'll go down to 70% of serves in ( = 77% * 11/12).
Thus said, I agree that most players IRL are happy if they can reach 60%.
But most players IRL can't be seen to have the 100% Serve Consistency of TE.
IRL, if a player has 70% Power & 100% Consistency, he'll probably change his serve a bit to raise his power even if he loses some consistency, to get more free points on 1st serve.
Online, in TE's Fair mode, you can't do that as your Power is limited to 70% for gameplay reasons.

I think realism should be sacrificed for better gameplay

This is a quite valid argument (I used several times in the past on other matters :P ), but I feel quite uncomfortable to do a special case for the 2nd serve online. Doing a special case in gameplay usually lead to problems, especially if it's based on something unrealistic when doing a simulation (one of these problems would be that people wouldn't be aware of the difference of % if they didn't read the doc).
I'd rather tune the Fair mode rules, and give a max of 90% (or maybe even less) of serve consistency. The problem of this is, as someone else said earlier, that currently the return is slightly overpowered against the B2 serve. Thus, this could lead to give a max of 90% to FH & BH's power, and I'm not sure many people would be happy about it.
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Re: Petition AGAINST ridiculous 2nd serve percentage.

Postby Brecht » 22 Aug 2010, 08:56

The problem of this is, as someone else said earlier, that currently the return is slightly overpowered against the B2 serve. Thus, this could lead to give a max of 90% to FH & BH's power, and I'm not sure many people would be happy about it.


I'm a bit off topic, but I noticed in Word Tour that, since I use B2 on 2nd serve most of the time, my 2nd serve speed is ridiculously low in comparison to my opponent's (with similar stats I mean). And they don't hit that many double faults.

Back to topic: I gave a try to the online game some months ago but mostly didn't enjoy it because A. of my poor reflexes :P and B. of the whole ball bashing game (I was able to overpower newbies without breaking a sweat and was most of the time overpowered by players who just run right and left and hit one corner after the other). From my experience (which is very limited), the CPU's game was a lot more varied than the online game ... in some 80% of the matches. The 20% left were very pleasant anyway.
I don't want to interfere in the debate about online play since I won't take part to it any time soon, but I wanted to express my feeling that yes, I think the online gameplay is way too fast and for me, neither realistic nor fun in 80% of the cases. Or maybe there should be several Tour cathegories, for players above 35, 45, 55 ... :P :lol:
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Re: Petition AGAINST ridiculous 2nd serve percentage.

Postby adner » 22 Aug 2010, 10:06

manutoo wrote:so adner & Stajus, could you explain me why in real life someone who's able to put 77% of serves in on his 1st serve wouldn't be able to put 77% of serves in on his 2nd serve, assuming he hits it at the same speed ? :thinking:
As I stated in previous post, I only see the stress changing that %, but not by much.

The stress is definitely a HUGE factor. Real players do double faults hitting more curvy and less powerful 2nd serves, and if they were to hit 2nd serve at same percentage as 1st serve, then why do you think they wouldn't go for them? Are they spinning the 2nd serves in just for the matter of fact? Noone makes them do it - it's a matter of their choice and therefore it looks like the stress is a reason good enough.

Some stats...
Serena Williams vs Vera Zvonareva - Wimbledon final.
Average 1st serve speed: 105 MPH vs 100 MPH
Average 2nd serve speed: 85 MPH vs 86 MPH
Can you spot a difference? Serena - 3 double faults, Vera - 2 double faults. And it doesn't look like they were going for their best 1st serve on 2nd serve.

Rafael Nadal vs Tomas Berdych - Wimbledon final.
Average 1st serve speed: 115 MPH vs 124 MPH
Average 2nd serve speed: 90 MPH vs 95 MPH
Difference: 25 MPH vs 29 MPH!!!! And Nadal has actually hit 3 double faults in this match, the amount a typical TE player hits when hitting 1st serve on 2nd serve.

http://2010.wimbledon.org/en_GB/scores/ ... index.html <- check these matches. Noone hits 2nd serve as fast as 1st.
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Re: Petition AGAINST ridiculous 2nd serve percentage.

Postby Serena Williams » 22 Aug 2010, 11:47

well i have to say my serve depends on this ridiculous 2 serve percentage but i'm willing to lower down the speed of my second serve for some realism
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Re: Petition AGAINST ridiculous 2nd serve percentage.

Postby Tennischampion » 22 Aug 2010, 14:08

Stajus wrote:Alright, so assuming 77%, or whatever it was :D...Let's take a fictional player who risks the 2nd serve all the time. The chance of hitting the first serve OUT is 23% and the chance of hitting both 1st and risky 2nd serves OUT is (0.23 x 0.23) x 100% ~ 5.3%...So in 100 "double 1st serve" attempts, one will only double fault 5-6 times. So yeah, I have to agree, it's absolutely ridiculous :lol: :lol: :lol: The 1st serve should be kept as it is, and the acceleration second serve should either be disabled or have a chance of going in way lower than 77%, I'd say about 40%...if someone really has the guts to risk they might hit a good one still...

i agree.5.3% is very small and its hammering even on second serve.....i think stress is major factor,but i also say power is also a factor which effects second serve.as power increases the player's consistency and precision decreases a lot on second serve becos of stress...however on first serves power and stress effect may not be so high.i mean second serve for power more than 170kmph(since i saw i highest serving speed with b2 at 77% is 170kmph), a player shud have consistency and precision=12.5(1/8) then no one wud target powerful one....even if they try they may get only once out of 8 times on their serve.
lets say a game with only serve points 15-0(2serves) similarly for 30-0 ,40-0 and game.. we totally get a max. of 8 chances for perfect serving.well it may be more if ur opponent gets points.so ideally 1/8 is better and adds realism :roll:
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Re: Petition AGAINST ridiculous 2nd serve percentage.

Postby manutoo » 22 Aug 2010, 17:04

Brecht,
about CPU, it takes more risk so the ball is a bit faster at same Power & Consistency ; also, higher Consistency raises the B1 and B2 serves' speed, even if the Power doesn't change ; lastly, CPU never puts spin in his 2nd serve, and if you put some, it lowers your serve speed significantly.

About online, I'm afraid you're very not alone in that case... That's one of the reasons that make me think to bring some changes to the Fair mode.

adner
if they were to hit 2nd serve at same percentage as 1st serve, then why do you think they wouldn't go for them?

The main reason is stated just a bit before your question : IRL, most players have around 60% of serves in, if not less. Which such %, the number of double faults would be very important if they were doing 2 risky serves.
But I can see 2 more reasons, even if they were actually getting 70-75% of 1st serves in :
1- to know if it's better to do a risked serve or a safe one for the 2nd serve, they should know what is their win % after each kind of serve ; this is something that depends of your opponent, of your form of the day, and even can vary over the match ; doing the stats & the maths in real time on their chair at each change of ends would likely be a good source of headaches
A quick explanation of what I mean ; is it any better to do a risky serve that has 75% chances to be in if it leads u to win 80% of the points than doing a safe serve that has 100% chances to be in if it leads u to win 60% of the points..? ... think ... think ... think ... Answer: it's same, except that if you go for the safe serve, you'll never do a double fault on a break point
2- if you always go for the risky serve, what do u do when u face a break point ? If your opponent is good, doing a double fault can mean losing the set ; this would greatly increase the stress even for most cold blooded players ; thus they would likely go for a safe serve ; what happens when it's the 1st time you do this safe serve since the beginning of the match or of the set ? Lacking some fresh practice on the spin & the momentum, it might not be as safe as it should, then that might even help to raise the stress a lot ; all in all, it doesn't seem much of a good strategy

From personal experience & some educated guess, I don't think the stress can lower by more than 5% the chances of the risky serve when it's done as a 2nd serve (as long as it's not against a break point). But I'm afraid that it's something I can't prove. Like the opposite can't be proven either. Some real pro testimony on this topic would be nice, but I doubt any one talked about this topic...

Oh, and thanks to let me know that IRL the 2nd serve is slower than the 1st serve, I never known that... ':D
If u had carefully read my messages, u'd had noticed that I never stated anything in contradiction with that, so it was really not useful to expose all that links... :roll:
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Re: Petition AGAINST ridiculous 2nd serve percentage.

Postby adner » 22 Aug 2010, 19:26

manutoo wrote:Oh, and thanks to let me know that IRL the 2nd serve is slower than the 1st serve, I never known that... ':D
If u had carefully read my messages, u'd had noticed that I never stated anything in contradiction with that, so it was really not useful to expose all that links... :roll:

So if you already know that they should be slower, so what is the point of this discussion? If you know that but for some reason you don't want to change it, any dialogue is pointless.
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Re: Petition AGAINST ridiculous 2nd serve percentage.

Postby manutoo » 22 Aug 2010, 20:17

adner,
if there's a gameplay issue, there's matter to discuss.
But currently, when you play online with a correctly configured player, u don't play with an average RL player, you play with a mega top player, which is kinda superhuman. IRL a player could have 100% in just a couple of skills, but here, people playing online in Fair mode got 100% in half of their skills : they can run super fast, hit the ball super strong on both FH & BH without doing much mistake, and they can serve like Pete Sampras on his best day.
You want to change the last one without changing the other ones, basing your request on RL facts. The thing is it doesn't work like that. You can't compare normal players hitting 55-65% of 1st serves in & the ones that get 77% in. I tried to explain to u, but it seems you didn't get it.
But even so, you raise a quite valid remark, and looking for a good solution is in my mind.
Unfortunately for u, it might not be the one u want... :P
But don't worry, I guess I won't make any change for a while...

If you want to make a rule that'd make the serve more realistic in tournament, just force the Consistency to be 90%, 80% or even 70% at max and the result will be much closer to the average of the RL Top50 players.
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Re: Petition AGAINST ridiculous 2nd serve percentage.

Postby S.Williamz » 05 Oct 2010, 19:14

I find it a bit annoying how much of a match depends on who gets the first serves in more successfully, it doesn't have anything to do with a players skill it's just random luck. Sometimes you get matches where the opponent hits most first serves in and you hit more second serves which makes it so much easier to break you.
Also I think double faults should be very, very rare with b1, because those random double faults also have a big impact on the game. It's not rare at all to hit 2 double faults in a row with b1, which naturally again is just random bad luck. The game simulates very high quality matches anyway(everyone usually has more winners than errors, high first serve% etc) so there's no point in hitting more than 1 or 2 random double faults a match. I just find it so annoying. The b2 serve is just too weak to even try.
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