Mana Games

[deBrito]

Hi, manutoo, many players use normal or powerful servefor their second serve on the grass court. Their average second serve speed is 180 KM/H, but they only make 2-3 double faults averagely. If everyone treats their second serve like their first serve, I think it would be much different from real tennis.

[deBrito]

There are some Statistics，please focusing on his average second serve speed and double faluts.

[KINGBARBOZA]

I don't know if much can be done without completely destroying the serve %. Some players will be willing to roll the dice in a purely RNG serve mechanic where you can fluke a set serving all accel 2nd serves with 0 or 1 double faults, attempt the same tactic in the next set, and make 10-15 double faults. It's hard to call unbalanced as the results can vary so much. Also, the safe serve has a 100% win rate so I don't think it's majorly OP to hit faster 2nd serves since the alternative is a guaranteed IN serve. that 2nd set where the guy has 0 double faults while serving 180km/h avg 2nd serve is just someone getting extremely lucky/great RNG in that particular set. It's one of my gripes with TE4, that the serve system is completely void of any skill-based mechanic to influence serve speed or %.

[deBrito]

However, they always seem to be lucky. I played with them many times and have never seen more than 10 or even 5 double-faults in a set. I think it should also reduce the impact of luck on the game.

[manutoo]

deBrito,
with the Service Power equal to the Consistency, the normal serve has an 85% success chance on the 1st serve, and 81% on the 2nd serve (there's a 4% penalty to simulate the stress).

In the 1st match, your opponent did 35-23 = 12 2nd serves. 12 * (1 - 0.81) = 2.28 double faults on average ; so he did more than the average.

In the 2nd match, your opponent got lucky and did less than average, but both results are well within the usual spread.

What do you think should be done against that ? To get a significant number of double faults, the Strong & Normal serve rate should be really greatly lowered on the 2nd serve, and that would feel strange, I think...

[deBrito]

hi, manutoo，
In reality, no one in tennis matches takes the second serve as his/her first serve. I believe that if players use a powerful serve or normal serve on the second serve, it should be appropriately reduced in speed. In fact, more and more people choose to finish the whole match with a normal serve because the benefits are clearly greater than the points lost from double faults.

[manutoo]

I think that preventing the user to do a strong 2nd serve would be unrealistic : in real life, if I want to do it, I can (and I was doing them actually). Becker did a strong serve on the 2nd serve for a championship point against Muster (and missed it and lost the match).

The real unrealistic issue here is that it's probably a bit too efficient compared to real life (although some real players may benefit to do a strong serve on their 2nd serve if they have 70+% of 1st serve in).

So I'd like to find an elegant way to solve that problem...

I just got an idea today : maybe I could noticeably lower the precision of strong & normal serve on the 2nd serve ? (it's likely too accurate anyway, even for a 1st serve)

What do you think ?

[Burned]

I just got an idea today : maybe I could noticeably lower the precision of strong & normal serve on the 2nd serve ? (it's likely too accurate anyway, even for a 1st serve)

What do you think ?

I think it's a good idea that needs to be checked out

[Mystery]

it's likely too accurate anyway, even for a 1st serve

1st serves are fine as is. It makes no sense to have <50% first serves all the time.
2nd serves (accel or normal) are indeed a bit too effective (especially for players who added all / most stars to service talents).

[manutoo]

Mystery,
"too accurate" means the aiming zone is too small for the strong serve. If you compare the serve distribution of a skilled human in TE4 and a tennis pro in real life, the TE4 user aims significantly closer to the lines.

[H!karu]

Usually the average 1st speed is about 30km/h faster than the average 2nd serve in real tennis match. and a player in TE4 do the 2nd serve by slice, his average speed of 1st serve and 2nd serve will match the data above. Now the problem is the strong/normal 2nd serve in % too high without any apparent risks (many double faults etc.), which makes no differences between 1st serve and 2nd serve.

Many players can do strong/normal 2nd serve through a 3 sets match and have <3 double faults. so I think the strong/normal 2nd serve in % should be limited under 50% or lower.

[KINGBARBOZA]

I dont think you should change it drastically. Hitting a bomb 2nd serve should still be a risk you can take, for example, Kyrgios IRL blasts his second serve and goes for a lot of 2nd serve aces.

[Mystery]

Mystery,
"too accurate" means the aiming zone is too small for the strong serve. If you compare the serve distribution of a skilled human in TE4 and a tennis pro in real life, the TE4 user aims significantly closer to the lines.

Yeah, but I think first service is fine though, because a skilled human in TE4 can also return better than a tennis pro in real life.

[squeakybum]

I don't know if much can be done without completely destroying the serve %. Some players will be willing to roll the dice in a purely RNG serve mechanic where you can fluke a set serving all accel 2nd serves with 0 or 1 double faults, attempt the same tactic in the next set, and make 10-15 double faults. It's hard to call unbalanced as the results can vary so much. Also, the safe serve has a 100% win rate so I don't think it's majorly OP to hit faster 2nd serves since the alternative is a guaranteed IN serve. that 2nd set where the guy has 0 double faults while serving 180km/h avg 2nd serve is just someone getting extremely lucky/great RNG in that particular set. It's one of my gripes with TE4, that the serve system is completely void of any skill-based mechanic to influence serve speed or %.

I agree that for me the worst aspect of the game is the serve, would be nice if there was a timing aspect, where timing, speed and placement interacted and not random chance. Btw no player has ever hit higher than 75% first serves in for their career. Rafa who is one of the highest, is at 68%, Tomic too and they roll their serves in a lot, so even the fact that you can create the chance of having 80%+ first serve in is gimmicky.

https://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/statsLeaders

[H!karu]

I don't know if much can be done without completely destroying the serve %. Some players will be willing to roll the dice in a purely RNG serve mechanic where you can fluke a set serving all accel 2nd serves with 0 or 1 double faults, attempt the same tactic in the next set, and make 10-15 double faults. It's hard to call unbalanced as the results can vary so much. Also, the safe serve has a 100% win rate so I don't think it's majorly OP to hit faster 2nd serves since the alternative is a guaranteed IN serve. that 2nd set where the guy has 0 double faults while serving 180km/h avg 2nd serve is just someone getting extremely lucky/great RNG in that particular set. It's one of my gripes with TE4, that the serve system is completely void of any skill-based mechanic to influence serve speed or %.

Actually, "that 2nd set where the guy has 0 double faults while serving 180km/h avg 2nd serve is just someone getting extremely lucky/great RNG in that particular set." this is not the lucky thing bc they can do the same thing in 10+ sets with different players.