players can move backward faster than light [+winners issue]

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Re: players can move backward faster than light

Postby manutoo » 16 Sep 2014, 06:54

MarkChan,
- where did I say that Online Tour players weren't playing better than CPU Pro player ? The only thing I said is that the "ball reach and _only_ the ball reach" of incredible 6 is better than the best human (and I gave the technical reasons why)
- I already played seriously online a few years ago and even played a bit on the Tour and against a few of the best players, so stop to imagine stuff
so it's amusing how you're putting words in my mouth, while you "forget" to react to what I actually wrote : "so how do you explain that top players can do a decent amount of winners against each other ?"

So don't write anymore here, no need to waste your time nor mine... (ie: I'm already annoyed enough by the non-stop BS in this topic ; next BS will be deleted and next one will lead to ban)

Notes:
- adding MarkChan to the list of people who don't read what I write => no need to talk to him
- I hate people calling less skilled players than them "newbies" ; it makes them look like arrogant idiot... :sad3:

EDIT:
BTW, for people who have slow understanding and didn't get my point with my .dmo's :
If I do plenty of winners vs the best defending CPU at Pro-10 with _0_ training, without mastering the shoulder height accel nor the short accel, while being heavily tired & sleepy, then you, with plenty of training & a fresh mind, you should be able to do a decent amount of winners vs the best online players (except if they're better than you). No need to brag about how you beat this or that CPU level... :roll: => insert facepalm here <=
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Re: players can move backward faster than light [+winners is

Postby VMoe86 » 16 Sep 2014, 08:41

Hitting winners is not the problem (there are more winners in ITST than in MG Tour settings), but it is the average rally length. Rally lengths in both ITST Mod and TE Vanilla can get to 10 on hardcourts or 12 on clay (variations depending on styles). For ITST Mod I know this myself, in fact I haven't gotten more than 9 on hardcourts this season. Against IC9 I don't get more than around 7. For MG Tour stats I refer to Heinrich:

http://www.managames.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?p=187226#p187226

It does not surprise me to see similar stats in that respect on both sides, because difficulty wise there is not much between Sim + Slow and Elite + Average as control setups. What you get more on error count in the latter you get more on the winner count in the former (one could also back this up with stats from ITST and MG Tour matches).

Just some facts, which kind of confirm my personal impression, that Elite controls are not the answer for more realistic rally length (for more realistic winner to error ratios it is ok).
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Re: players can move backward faster than light [+winners is

Postby djarvik » 16 Sep 2014, 16:32

I look at it from a different point of view, I don't even take the Average Rally into account. Sure, the average maybe acceptable (it is not according to what read so far), but there are still areas that bother me.

I am looking at the points, specific points. That's where I see a problem, in point construction and the fact that it is unrealistic. Again, opening up the court and hitting to open court NOT on the line - does not result in a winner in TE but does in real life. Sure there are Murrays and Nadals and Djokers of the tennis world that can get a lot of these shots back, but when I say a lot I mean 4/10 not 10/10 or 9/10. That is TWICE less then is possible in TE. Add to that the shot production, meaning what kind of ball is coming back - and you can clearly see the problem.

A shot into open court does not have to be ON THE LINE to have a CHANCE of a winner. That is just not how tennis works.

I don't pretend to know the technical side of it and how to fix it, I just want to voice the issue. The fix is your expertise Manu.

So yeah, the average rally may not show the issue, does not mean there is no issue. I do understand that ANY drastic change like that may throw off the balance (which is good, but not perfect), so I am not asking for anything drastic, nor do I know "HOW" to fix that or if it is even possible. Just trying to shed light on the problem.

As for a "circle running" - I can definitely feel it at times, if I catch the movement pattern just right - your players seems much more responsive and faster. Maybe someone who is well versed in this technique can explain Manu how it works - he can then analyze it and see if there could be a fix for that.
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Re: players can move backward faster than light

Postby ComeonANDY!! » 17 Sep 2014, 01:20

MarkChan wrote:He doesn't understand your English, showing a dmo of game with Pro opponent, not even incredible cpu opponent , not to mention guys with 2500ELO online :annoyed:


Only 'one' person had even been botherd to look at Manutoo's demo's at that point of this quote above from you Mark. So to me, you and you's above this comment after Manutoo had posted those demos haven't even tried to understand his reasoning? Because you's couldn't even be arsed to download them and see his point of view! And some of you have just continued to spout off your rubbish never the less.. :roll:

Mark, have you bought the full version of this game then? If so, then fair play to you :wink: because there's a lot of tossers who only play online who haven't and complain regardless.


To play the ITST Mod, you would need to buy the full version, so it's a good Mod for that. But as with all modding, if you tweak things yourselves? Then things won't work the same as in the original TE. I've had to go through my offline patches before which i have downloaded and change things. Each to their own... :P but i wouldn't of even dreamed of having a dig at Manutoo about any of my issues (unlike some of you disrespectful shits)! Because they were most likely than not: would always be A patch problem of mine.


The Court surface [Physics] were always once tampered with by court Mods - i never knew why? :roll: To Court Mods, Stick to the original court physics as they work very well... :wink: :wink: :yes:
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Re: players can move backward faster than light

Postby djarvik » 17 Sep 2014, 03:27

ComeonANDY!! wrote: some of you have just continued to spout off your rubbish
some of you disrespectful shits


Have the balls to point out who you talking about or shut up. Otherwise YOU are the one disrespecting everyone in this discussion.

If you have nothing to add beyond what Manu said, then there is really no need to post is there?

I have been nothing but polite here and I would like the courtesy back.
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Re: players can move backward faster than light [+winners is

Postby Algo » 17 Sep 2014, 04:01

djarvik wrote:I look at it from a different point of view, I don't even take the Average Rally into account. Sure, the average maybe acceptable (it is not according to what read so far), but there are still areas that bother me.

I am looking at the points, specific points. That's where I see a problem, in point construction and the fact that it is unrealistic. Again, opening up the court and hitting to open court NOT on the line - does not result in a winner in TE but does in real life. Sure there are Murrays and Nadals and Djokers of the tennis world that can get a lot of these shots back, but when I say a lot I mean 4/10 not 10/10 or 9/10. That is TWICE less then is possible in TE. Add to that the shot production, meaning what kind of ball is coming back - and you can clearly see the problem.

A shot into open court does not have to be ON THE LINE to have a CHANCE of a winner. That is just not how tennis works.


Is it something around what this video shows what you mean? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf2lnfxHFAk
They are not pro's and they're not going for the winners obviously, but you can catch the drift.

I could totally back you up on that, plus there are some times on which some players get a few extra ms to get to balls, which gives them enough time to either just get the ball in play or, exploiting the other issue I already pointed out, hit a shot that lands on the line..., so definitely there might be something there to fix or tune.
I always felt and said that the build with which you had originally fixed the circle defense was way better than the following tuning.
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Re: players can move backward faster than light [+winners is

Postby manutoo » 17 Sep 2014, 06:08

VMoe86,
yup, Rally Length (RL) is higher in TE than in Real Tennis (RT).
There are several reasons for that :
1- there's no totally unforced error (ie: you can do unforced error only by aiming too much for the lines) ; adding real UE to the game would probably lower the RL by 10 or 20%, and probably even more when RL is above 10 (if you do the calculations, let me know as I'm interested to know it exactly ; of course it depends of both players' consistency)
2- even though the number of aces is close of RT, there are likely less serve winners (ie: direct fault on return), partly coz of #1, but also coz it's easier to just put back the ball in play ; I'm not sure how much it'd modify TE RL to change that
3- accelerations & volleys need more shots to conclude the point (usually 1 or 2 more than in RT), per game design, so that's about 1 extra strike of RL
4- the "long way" ("filière longue" in french, I don't know the equivalent technical term in English ; it's when the rallies have many strikes because players play safely) can get really very very long, mostly coz of point #1

There are probably some other little things, but with 4 points you probably have nearly 80% of the extra RL explained.

Point 1 is wanted to avoid frustrating errors (check TE4 official topic for future planned changes about it).
Point 3 is wanted because as a player I personally enjoy a lot more building points to win them, or just playing more strikes when I lose. This may or may not change in TE4. It'll very likely change in TEM2, though.

Elite controls are bound to shorten the RL, at least a little bit, by producing earlier errors, and also balls easier to attack on miss-hits. That is if you have the mean to position yourself perfectly to take advantage of these easier balls and do good accelerations (read: you need the Danger Zone... :aureola: )

djarvik,
1st, don't pick at ComeonANDY!! ; either you think you acted badly and are included in his comment and then you humbly shut up, or you don't and then his comment is absolutely not about you and you don't have to feel attacked and then you can nicely ignore it.
Strangely, you take badly some imaginary aggression, want to prevent ComeonANDY!! to talk in this topic while he's exposing real facts, but you had no problem with all the pack picking at me, twisting and/or ignoring my explanations...
And you said you're mature, huh ? :sad3:

Now, let's get back to more constructive talking.

So yup, the need to aim for the line is per design.
The reason behind this is to limit the luck factor in the game.
I'll explain. If an acceleration 1.5m away from the line would give a winner 80-90% of the times, then a normal B1 ball on the line would often give a big advantage in the point or even a winner. So I'd have to make it harder to reach the line. There are several ways to do that :
1- Topspin 1/3 way : it's just not possible to aim for the line without doing a risk shot, thus there's no left/right error on normal shot (for me = super bad, I don't want that in my game)
2- make it very hard to aim the lines ; only a few skilled people will be able to do it, which mean most of people playing TE won't be able to enjoy the game to its fullest ; + for these most skilled people, the game might become a winner feast and I'll have big trouble to tune all that
3- make it random to hit the lines (ie: bigger aiming zone) ; the game would then become more luck based, and I don't think luck is the best factor in a tennis game ; people liking luck can play dices :whistle:
So I went with my solution :
- players run faster than in real life (ie: the real life equivalent of TE 70% power / 70% speed would be same ball speed but slower running speed)
- accelerations don't need to hit the lines when you're really into the court, and/or you really put your opponent far on the other side, so you have to build your points more (ie: it requires more skills when your opponent is more skilled ; not much luck involved, not preventing lower skilled players to enjoy the game)
- in other cases, you have to aim for the lines

So yup, required aiming is far from being 100% realistic, but I hope you'll get my reasons (you don't have to like them, everybody is entitled to their own tastes, as long as they remember their tastes are not universal truth :aureola: )

Algo,
here the state I think I let the circle dancing into : it's still possible to do it, but it takes more stamina than 1 year ago, while regularly slightly sticking the player making him lose a little bit of time (it's partly avoidable with skills, but not 100% I think). So in terms of gameplay, that's acceptable ; more skills & more stamina lead to a bit more court coverage.
If you think it's not that well balanced, you can send me some .dmo's (with score for key points to watch) and I'll try to check them (nothing soon, though).


And I'll add 1 general point :
changing the roots of the gameplay doesn't take 5 minutes like some of the people around here seem to imagine. It's a long process. It's not hours, days or weeks ; it's more like months & years. A couple of years ago I had calculated that I had played TE a bare minimum of 800 hours since 2005 ; and I almost never play for the pleasure, and even when I do, I'm always ending seeing issues, unrealistic stuff, stuff that doesn't work like it should, etc., so it becomes work quite quickly.
Oh, and playing the game is just a part of tuning the gameplay, there's also coding & thinking required... ;)
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Re: players can move backward faster than light [+winners is

Postby ComeonANDY!! » 17 Sep 2014, 10:47

djarvik wrote:
Have the balls to point out who you talking about or shut up. Otherwise YOU are the one disrespecting everyone in this discussion.

If you have nothing to add beyond what Manu said, then there is really no need to post is there?

I have been nothing but polite here and I would like the courtesy back.


I was meaning the three people who had posted their comments after Manutoo had posted his demo's showing his reasoning to all you experts who couldn't even be arsed to download them and see what he was meaning. I am sorry that you couldn't work out for yourself who i was meaning. :shock:

(1)- isaldor,
(2)- you, :blackeye:
(3)- MarkChan,

I hope that helps. BTW.. Just so you understand... I was talking about your last post on page 2 and not your post on page 3. :tongue:
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Re: players can move backward faster than light [+winners is

Postby miharu0607 » 17 Sep 2014, 10:55

Such a pity that Manu has to earn money and just can't tell you all - Fuck off moaners, if you want to feel realism move your fat asses behind ur desks, and play on a real court...

I bet with another update, we will have another merry-go-round with "i was the best, and now I am losing".

I just wonder how would you complain to EA or any other company (eg. Sega/Atari), I wonder who would answer you, and as well how many updates you would have get for free...

Some humbleness, you all should kiss Manu's butt for giving you chance to play with REAL rules, versus players with REAL names, with possibility to add REAL courts and REAL tournaments.
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Re: players can move backward faster than light [+winners is

Postby BunchOfPussies » 17 Sep 2014, 14:59

Normal Controls + ITST mode (current situation): top players paint lines and catch everything with various irrealistic tricks (non-exhaustive list) such as circle defense, slice counters, back boarding, counters...
Result: high rally lenght.
Fun -> average because on one hand, both players mostly take risk to conclude the point, hence the rhythm is quite good ; on the other hand there is frustration to see rallies up to 160-200 shots sometimes in top 5 because, top players neutralize themselves.

Elite controls: players only push the ball in the court and wait for the other to make a fault. Everytime a player takes the slightest risk,he's not rewarded, the ball goes out, especially at the net.
Result: elite control doesn't shorten rallies at all as players tend to play far more securely.
Fun -> no fun, because no players hit acceleration, the game is slow, it's boring as hell. It's worst than watching a match between Simon & Monfils.

Playing with previews or/plus auto pos: it helps people to anticipate better and/or to make less errors.
Result: rally length increases even more, the game becomes a pong-like.

Conclusion: elite controls is not an alternative, it's like saying to some people who are starving to death "Eat tires" :applause:
Playing with previews it's like letting a child using a tricycle all his life : he will never figure out what are the real sensations of bike-riding. People who play under these conditions are like crippled who totally miss the interest of the game and of tennis in general (in real life, it seems no players informs his opponent about where he's gonna serve).

Btw, I would not be surprised that ITST's top 30 would be a lot better than the top 5 of the MG (crippled) tour, so it's perhaps time to take their advice in account. These guys beat Incredible AI up to level 10, they know better than anyone how the game works.
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Re: players can move backward faster than light [+winners is

Postby E=mc2 » 17 Sep 2014, 15:09

Topic: players can move backward faster than light :shock: Till now there are no time travelers in any of the human civilizations that i know of :sad3: These players must be....
Image
Last edited by E=mc2 on 17 Sep 2014, 15:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: players can move backward faster than light [+winners is

Postby Rob92 » 17 Sep 2014, 15:16

E=mc2 wrote:Topic: players can move backward faster than light :shock: There are no time travelers in any of the human civilizations that i know of :sad3:
Relevant username :) .
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Re: players can move backward faster than light [+winners is

Postby E=mc2 » 17 Sep 2014, 16:10

Rob92 wrote:Relevant username :) .

:wink:
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Re: players can move backward faster than light [+winners is

Postby Algo » 17 Sep 2014, 19:20

This was actually all fine, but it raises another problem.
A lot of times, one will make a misstep on purpose, just to break inertia, and then move to where the ball is actually going.
That fraction of a second in real life is actually critical and you don't see it happening. At all, or as much as in here, can't decide ':D
It may easily be fixed with anims, though. Like a really bent body on the start of the forward movement or a turn around (like Meg's Nadal defense anim)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm_5bZt ... e=youtu.be

2nd point of the dmo, and many others.
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Re: players can move backward faster than light [+winners is

Postby manutoo » 18 Sep 2014, 04:16

Algo,
I'm not sure I got correctly what you mean, but anyway here's an answer that should be close of the situation you exposed (hopefully!).
On a real court, if a player is slowly moving to the right when a ball is sent to his left, 3 things can happen :
1- his right foot is not touching the ground (or at least not putting weight on the ground) and moving away to the right
2- both feet touch the ground and he's bending his right knee
3- right knee is slightly bended and left foot is brought back to the right
If when the ball is hit, he's in Phase 1, then usually the point is over, he can't recover quickly and go to the left instead of the right ; but in Phase 2 or 3, it's a bit like a split step done only with the right knee, so he can spring back to the left without losing too much time. The game considers you're always in Phase 2 or 3 when this kind of situation happens, so the penalty exists, but it's very small (and used to be a lot smaller, I think back in TE2009 or maybe early TE2011, and when I raised it, I got... whiners whining... ! ':D ).
It could be bigger, but actually the current idea is to encourage to always move a little bit, to simulate the need to always be slightly bouncing on a real court (teachers were losing their voices yelling that advice in my tennis club :bounce: )


miharu0607,
I like your thinking, man..! 8-)


oh yup, I almost forgot :
no need to feed the trolls, just ignore them... If I had done this with the 1st post of this topic, maybe I'd have saved all of us a lot of time... :blackeye:
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