Comment about Tiredness system & Serves %

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Comment about Tiredness system & Serves %

Postby Stajus » 22 Aug 2010, 13:20

Tiredness mainly arises due to running, not hitting the ball with power...So, the feature needs a lot of tuning to be realistic, and that's why it's not used in the online tournaments. About the 2nd serve - yes, the stress causes DFs on 2nd serve, but it's a huge factor and most people would serve tons of DFs if they served a "double 1st serve"...I think Adner wrote more about this on the corresponding thread anyways. The return doesn't necessarily overpower the 2nd serve if you're varying your second serves well, so reducing the fh/bh to 90% isn't necessary - again I don't think it's a good idea to reduce the serve consistency to max 90%, so please don't start doing that without talking to more players...Anyways, the tiredness is configured incorrectly, I can hit the ball 10000 times but that won't get me tired as I could hit it another 10000 times for all I know - it's the running that makes us tired in real life.

I had only 1 desynch in my doubles set with Blacky on this build, so that bug might have been fixed now...but I'll see at the USO I guess :D

If you can't configure the 2nd serve on its own, try to talk to all the players, because I'm sure lowering the consistency isn't the way...but serving 5-6 DFs per 100 "double first serves" assuming correct left/right aiming (most top players really dont hit that many wide serves anyways) is very unrealistic. As for me, I will continue to serve mostly safe 2nd serves, 'cause any other way is just utilising the shortcomings of the serve configuration...kinda like cheating :jap: . Bye
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Re: Comment about Tiredness system & Serves %

Postby Krisztian J. » 22 Aug 2010, 15:55

Stajus wrote:
cheating

i think its your favourite word :)
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Re: Comment about Tiredness system & Serves %

Postby Tennischampion » 22 Aug 2010, 16:17

10,000 times lol :lol: stand at one place and hit the ball 10,000 times....i m sure u wud get tired :wink: i think its not instant tiredness but hitting the ball also causes tiredness like pain in hands a bit..if u play really long match.best example is isner mahut where both just slept on court at the end.they had no power in their hands at the end :sweat: :whistle:
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Re: Comment about Tiredness system & Serves %

Postby Stajus » 22 Aug 2010, 16:25

Tennischampion wrote:10,000 times lol :lol: stand at one place and hit the ball 10,000 times....i m sure u wud get tired :wink: i think its not instant tiredness but hitting the ball also causes tiredness like pain in hands a bit..if u play really long match.best example is isner mahut where both just slept on court at the end.they had no power in their hands at the end :sweat: :whistle:

Isner vs Mahut - at the end of the match there were a bunch of winners => the power was still decent, but neither could run thus the winners. Repeat: neither could run 8-)...P.S. On MP Isner hit a fairly powerful bh ;)

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Re: Comment about Tiredness system & Serves %

Postby Tennischampion » 22 Aug 2010, 16:57

i didnt said running was just the problem for tiredness.i added hitting power also counts in tiredness....isner match 1st day last point was exhausting...he cudnt produce big power on his serve at the ending stages of day1 and even day2 he looked just decent enough to win but not the best in his strikes
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Re: Comment about Tiredness system & Serves %

Postby manutoo » 22 Aug 2010, 18:02

Stajus,
right now, in TE, it's about as tiring to run 5m at full speed than doing a acceleration. Roughly put, that means that hitting 20 accelerations is as tiring as running 100m. (with 100% speed & stamina)

Now, I'm sure you can hit 2000 times without getting tired (20'000, I begin to have some doubt though ;) ).
In TE, you don't really get tired by hitting the ball either. Only the accelerations are noticeably tiring.
I don't know your level in real life, but there's a whole word between hitting a ball at 90km/h like a decent club player does and doing accelerations at 135km/h . That's 50% more speed. As you learned in Physics at school, that's 2.25 times more energy put in the ball. But to obtain this additional energy, you have to push & more or less jump on the legs ; most of the energy is lost in the jump & comes back on the legs during the descending phase ; thus, the energy efficiency is way lower when hitting at 135km/h. So to achieve this, you have to use likely something around 4 or 5 times more energy than hitting at 90kh/m (that works same with 150km/h & 100km/h ;) ).
And that's not all. Doing accelerations requires perfect feet positioning, from the very beginning of the waiting to the actual preparation of the shot, and this positioning needs to be fast. Thus this also requires a lot more energy than simply hitting the ball...

Personally, my stamina is quite bad, but I can jogtrot & hit balls for hours on a tennis court ; I can even still sprint once per game after hours of play. But what drains my energy is doing acceleration...
And if you look the pros, most of times, they don't run that much, just a few meters, and usually, far from their full speed. Running is not much an issue in tennis. As long as they don't get cramps, players still run at a decent speed in the 5th set...

about serves, there's already a topic for that matter. But don't worry, I'm not planning to change anything soon.
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Re: Comment about Tiredness system & Serves %

Postby manutoo » 22 Aug 2010, 19:59

Running is not much an issue in tennis.

Sorry, I was kinda in a rush when I wrote my last message and this piece is clearly incorrect, especially coz it doesn't fit with the actual tiredness in TE.
I meant : jogrot is not an issue in tennis, hitting normally the ball even less. Sprinting is, especially on long distance, but this actually doesn't happen that often during the game (most strikes are hit a few meters from each other). Hitting acceleration after acceleration is, especially when you recall that hitting an acceleration requires a lot of leg & body work in addition of arm work.

And I even add this note : currently in TE, in the case you are running from left lane line to right lane line hitting 1 acceleration after another, you'll get more tired from the run than from the accelerations, so leg work is really counting & counted in the tiredness.

And a last comment, sarcastic (sorry, I couldn't resist ':D ) :
So, the feature needs a lot of tuning to be realistic, and that's why it's not used in the online tournaments

so u don't like a system in which tiredness comes about 50% from running & 50% from hitting accelerations coz u think legwork should play a bigger part, then you prefer to use the legacy '09 system where 100% comes from the acceleration... Interesting... :whistle:
(ok ok, there's no lasting tiredness from one point to another in '09, but still ... :P )
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Re: Comment about Tiredness system & Serves %

Postby Stajus » 22 Aug 2010, 20:56

Stajus wrote:Tiredness mainly arises due to running, not hitting the ball with power...

This part is about real life (seems that I didn't make that clear) :whistle: So, no, I don't prefer the '09 system where 100% of "tiredness" is expressed in losing accelerations...I just expect running to be more tiring than hitting the ball - at least for me it is...And I'm a decent amateur player, but I didn't play much this year so I probably suck now :mrgreen: But, I don't hit at 135 kmh so :roll: Still, pretty much all the top players on the World Tour here thought that this tiredness feature would help the "bashers" , but with 50-50 it might even help the defenders further (yeah defensive type players still dominate here or at least the ones that are the best at defending - even though they arent necessarily defensive all the time ;) )...Lol, nvm :bounce: I'll never get "tired" in doubles anyways, but I'll tire myself out by bashing every ball in singles 8-) My own experience is the opposite from yours, I'm pretty sure I mainly get tired from running rather than hitting hard...(but now you'll say that's because I hit like a good club player at only 90 kmh :whistle: :lol: ).

P.S. I think serving is actually more tiring than powerful groundstrokes - again from my own experience of long 4-5 setters in RL :fear:
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Re: Comment about Tiredness system & Serves %

Postby Togtdyalttai » 22 Aug 2010, 22:05

Stajus wrote:This part is about real life (seems that I didn't make that clear) :whistle: So, no, I don't prefer the '09 system where 100% of "tiredness" is expressed in losing accelerations...I just expect running to be more tiring than hitting the ball - at least for me it is...And I'm a decent amateur player, but I didn't play much this year so I probably suck now :mrgreen: But, I don't hit at 135 kmh so :roll: Still, pretty much all the top players on the World Tour here thought that this tiredness feature would help the "bashers" , but with 50-50 it might even help the defenders further (yeah defensive type players still dominate here or at least the ones that are the best at defending - even though they arent necessarily defensive all the time ;) )...Lol, nvm :bounce: I'll never get "tired" in doubles anyways, but I'll tire myself out by bashing every ball in singles 8-) My own experience is the opposite from yours, I'm pretty sure I mainly get tired from running rather than hitting hard...(but now you'll say that's because I hit like a good club player at only 90 kmh :whistle: :lol: ).

P.S. I think serving is actually more tiring than powerful groundstrokes - again from my own experience of long 4-5 setters in RL :fear:


That's a good point about serving. It's much more affected than groundstrokes when you're tired, as you could see in the Isner-Mahut match. At the end of the second day, Isner definitely lost some weight on his serve, but he could still blast forehands. He also was laboring to even move an inch..

In my experience in real tennis, (I'm not a very good player, but I still think I get the gist of the game) running is also what tires me out, that and serving. It's hard to go for my serves on a hot day after I've been serving, and I won't run to balls like I could in the beginning, but I can still hit solid groundstrokes if I'm in position. I think it might be good to create a poll about what people think tires you out more in tennis.
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Re: Comment about Tiredness system & Serves %

Postby manutoo » 23 Aug 2010, 06:46

There's a mistake to not do : trying to compare Sunday (or club) players' stamina with Pro's stamina . If you have trouble to do a 30-minute footing, you can't say you have the required stamina to run on a court.

And I hope I explained clearly enough that if you're not jumping in the ball, hitting at some really decent pace, then you don't know how much tiring it is.

I'll add another example.
Real defenders have kinda disappeared nowadays from the ATP Tour (except for the super-mutant Nadal, who may hits too strong & aggressively to be seen as a classic basic defender), but just a few years ago they were still pretty present (some names come to mind : Costa, Bruguera, Mantilla, etc...).
At Roland Garros, this kind of guys were able to kill physically bashers while they were standing more far from their baseline and were taking fewer risks, thus they were running a lot more than their basher opponent. Still, the basher was usually getting tired 1st. Even if the defenders' stamina was likely better than the bashers' one, it means that defending (and running a lot) is about same tiring than bashing a lot (and running less).

EDIT:
And it seems that you didn't read the doc, here :
Code: Select all
The more your Overall Energy bar goes under 50%, the more :
    * you lose a bit of precision on your strikes
    * your max run speed lowers & your run acceleration lowers

So the long term tiredness influences mostly the run speed.
It also influences the serve, but this is a secret undocumented feature... :fear: ... ':D

And Stajus, I got it you were talking about ur RL experience... I mix badly RL Pro, own RL experience & in-game stuff, but I hope the flow of my thoughts is still understandable.... :)
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