Test Version #1 + Preview #3

General discussions about the tennis games Tennis Elbow
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Postby Santiago92 » 05 Aug 2008, 18:14

Manu, I won two matches a few days ago 6-0 and at the end of those, the game asked me if I want to have a better opponent in the next match. I selected yes the two times.

I think that means the level of my opponent is better and I noticed it in the next match. But at that level, when I hit a drop shot after my opponent's serve he doesn't move and it's always a winner shot.

My opponent's skills are:

[TrainingClub_p2_Short]
Num = 7
Hue = 0
//Saturation = 1.5
//Brightness = 0.5

[TrainingClub_p2_Shirt]
Num = 7
//Hue = -60
//Saturation = 1.5
//Brightness = 1.5

[TrainingClub_p2_Eyes]
Hue = -60
Saturation = 1.25
Brightness = 1.25

[TrainingClub_p2_Cuff]
Hue = 30
Saturation = 1.0
Brightness = 0.8

[TrainingClub_p2_Sockets]
Num = 2
Hue = -60
Saturation = 1.0
Brightness = 0.8

[TrainingClub_p2_Shoes]
Num = 5
Hue = 0
Saturation = 1.0
Brightness = 1.0

[TrainingClub_p2_Racket]
Num = 3
Hue = 0

[TrainingClub_p2_RacketHandle]
Hue = 30

[TrainingClub_p2_Hair]
Preset = 5

[TrainingClub_p2_Skin]
Preset = 2

[TrainingClub_p2_Head]
Preset = 0

[TrainingClub_p2]
TrainingSurface = 0
TrainingSurfaceSpeed= 0
Age = 0
BackhandVolley = 0
Backhand_Consistency= 0
Backhand_Power = 0
Backhand_Precision= 0
ColdBlood = 0
Concentration = 0
Constancy = 0
Counter = 0
DoubleHandBH = 0
DoubleHandFH = 0
DoubleSpirit = 0
Dropshot = 0
EnergyMax = 0
Experience = 0
ForceNorm = 0
ForceRally = 0
ForceReturn = 0
ForceServe = 0
ForehandVolley = 0
Forehand_Consistency= 0
Forehand_Power = 0
Forehand_Precision= 0
Height = 165
Human = 0
InCoachCenter = 0
InjuryNbDay = 0
InjuryNbDay1st = 0
InjuryNum = 0
InjuryRisk = 0
Level = 1
Lift = 0
Lob = 0
LongTermForm = 0
Motivation = 0
NbTalent = 0
NetPresence = 0
Partner = 0
Passing = 0
Positioning = 0
Reflexes = 0
Return = 0
SelfEsteem = 0
Service_Consistency= 0
Service_Power = 0
Service_Precision= 0
ShortTermForm = 0
Smash = 0
Speed = 0
Stamina = 0
Strength = 0
Style = 0
Surface_Fast = 0
Surface_MidFast = 0
Surface_MidSlow = 0
Surface_Normal = 0
Surface_Slow = 0
Tactic = 0
Tonicity = 0
Soul = 2
ST_1stService = 181
ST_1stService% = 87
ST_1stServiceOut= 23
ST_1stServiceWr = 15
ST_2ndService = 19
ST_2ndService% = 100
ST_2ndServiceOut= 0
ST_2ndServiceWr = 2
ST_Ace = 17
ST_Backhand = 735
ST_Backhand% = 97
ST_BackhandOut = 21
ST_BackhandWr = 77
ST_Dist = 16.57
ST_DistUS = 10.2734
ST_DoubleFault = 0
ST_Forehand = 1144
ST_Forehand% = 97
ST_ForehandOut = 29
ST_ForehandWr = 112
ST_Smash = 32
ST_Smash% = 100
ST_SmashOut = 0
ST_SmashWr = 5
ST_Total = 2165
ST_Total% = 96
ST_TotalOut = 77
ST_TotalWr = 224
ST_VolleyBH = 24
ST_VolleyBH% = 92
ST_VolleyBHOut = 2
ST_VolleyBHWr = 6
ST_VolleyFH = 30
ST_VolleyFH% = 93
ST_VolleyFHOut = 2
ST_VolleyFHWr = 7
TourNum = 0
Female = 0
Character = 0
Country = Fr
Hand = 1
Name = Jugador 2
Rank = 0
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Santiago92
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Postby manutoo » 05 Aug 2008, 18:23

Santiago92, Set his level back to :
Level = 2
The AI fails with 1 or 0.
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Postby S.Williamz » 06 Aug 2008, 01:08

About the combinations:

Well, I wanted more power, but I wasn't sure how to get it...were power and precision somehow linked? If you lower precision you get more power?(not sure where I got this idea so correct me if I'm wrong lol) Anyway it seemed to work, though if there was a gap of for example 50 between power and precision, for example 100 power and 50 precision on forehand and backhand, the player seems to start to do random errors.
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Postby manutoo » 06 Aug 2008, 08:17

@S.Williamz :
Ok, this was a wanted effect, but it was way too strong, so I greatly tuned it down.
When you want more power, you just have to raise your power skill, surprising, isn't it ..? ;)
And if you lower your precision skill, it will lower the precision of your strikes, and thus, you'll begin to send the ball a bit everywhere. To avoid this, then you have to always prepare your strikes well in advance, and if you fail to do so, then you should accept to miss some balls, or you should only do the safe strike ( = no button pressed ).

Anyway, now I tuned this effect down, and with a diff of 50% between the precision & the power, it should be still fully playable, as long as you prepare your strike early enough.
But the idea is to avoid to have more than 20% of difference between your power & precision, to be sure to be precise enough in stress time (ie: not enough time to prepare your strike on a bit difficult ball).

@Everbody :
So I updated the Test version, and I also raised the trial limit so everybody can go on playing it for 2 more weeks..! :)
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Postby S.Williamz » 06 Aug 2008, 10:18

Hey how do you make your opponent harder? Can you do that in the beta?

Also, could you explain somewhere what exactly do all the player stats do? Power increases speed of shot, how does precision affect the shots? And consistency? I know it should be obvious but it really isn't...
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Postby manutoo » 06 Aug 2008, 10:22

The harder AI will come in 1 month (hopefully).

The Consistency & Precision effects are explained in the Concept topic...
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Postby S.Williamz » 06 Aug 2008, 10:42

manutoo wrote:The harder AI will come in 1 month (hopefully).

The Consistency & Precision effects are explained in the Concept topic...


I didn't really understand this:
"Strike precision: Depending of many factors, your strike will be more or less accurate; ie: it will go more or less closely of the location you aimed on left/right while you
prepared your strike, and farer/closer on the direction axis."

Does it mean that it will just randomly be shorter or longer ball, and randomly go more left or more right, regardless of how long I hold down the left/right keys?

I also didn't quite understand what consistency did...is it simply that if you have a low consistency you do more random errors?

I don't really like the random error concept, shouldn't everything you do on court depend on your playing skill, not because you have placed your players stats a bit wrong, which will lead to random errors that you have no control over?

Sorry I'm being difficult...but I really don't understand but I would like to. lol
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Postby milos » 06 Aug 2008, 11:55

i hate to sound like a dummy, but what is AI?
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Postby Algo » 06 Aug 2008, 13:29

milos wrote:i hate to sound like a dummy, but what is AI?

Artificial Inteligence, what it makes, in this case, more or less difficult to play against the computer
Tour Mod.

Tour issues by PM or Skype.
If you don't add me nor send me a PM, you might see your chances reduced. Inform me about anything that might have went on with your matches BEFORE deadlines, otherwise, decisions won't be changed.
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Postby manutoo » 06 Aug 2008, 17:17

@S.Williamz :
>> Does it mean that it will just randomly be shorter or longer ball,
>> and randomly go more left or more right,
>> regardless of how long I hold down the left/right keys?

yes, by a tiny amount in most of times.
In average situation, the left/right imprecision is around +/- 20 cm. In a good one, less than 10cm, in a bad one 50cm, and in a totally catastrophic one about 2m.

You can try by not aiming left/right at all, and looking where your ball goes on the opposite side; it should go exactly to the center for a very precise strike, and a more & more decentred for less & less precise strikes.
Vary your precision by varying your preparation time. Try also the different shots, coz they don't have all the same precision.

>> I also didn't quite understand what consistency did...

The higher your consistency is (compared to your strike power), the harder the ball you can play without penalty.
Or formulate is another way, the easier the ball... :)

>> which will lead to random errors that you have no control over?

yes, u don't have a pure technical control over these random errors.
Wanting to reproduce this technical control wouldn't lead closer to a tennis simulation, as there's no way to reproduce the technicality of tennis, which comes from the whole body, where on your PC you use only the fingers (which are almost not used at all in real tennis).
So games pretending to get closer of a tennis simulation by this mean are just completely wrong.

Me, I miss to play tennis, but I don't miss to press many buttons in strange ways to do strikes that I can easily do in real...

So even if you don't have a technical control over these random errors, you do have a lot of preemptive control over them : you have to analysis the ball trajectory & react to it quickly, to give you time to prepare your strike, and thus reduce your imprecision, place yourself in the right spot, and then you have to choose the right strike in the right situation, and decide what risk you're willing to take according to your appreciation of your strike imprecisions, which also depend of your player strike skills, so learning your own limits due to your natural skills is very important.

Oh my god, isn't that almost exactly what _real_ tennis is all about ..? ;)

I do it again in slow motion :
- ball analysis
- quick reflexes
- positioning
- tactics & strike decision
- appreciation of risk and knowing your own limits

If you prefer complicated button combinations & timing, there are already enough tennis games like this.
But if you want to keep urself busy with what a real tennis player thinks about & feels on a real court, humm, the choice is quickly made... ;)

By the way, if anyone sees a flaw in my reasoning, now is a good time to talk about it, so I could correct some parts of the game before the final release..!
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Postby manutoo » 06 Aug 2008, 17:36

oops, i forgot something important... So in TE, the idea is that you control a professional tennis player which is already ok on a technical level (more or less, depending of your player's skills)... And you, you incarnate the other parts mentioned above... ;)
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Postby S.Williamz » 07 Aug 2008, 00:30

Yeah I do understand, I don't like complicated button combinations and all that, I never said that, actually I prefer the opposite...lol

But I just don't see how random errors are in any way FUN...it becomes less of a game on court and more of a game of analysing your players stats to make a right combination. I mean, who would play with player stats that make you make random errors? Atleast I want to play so that I have full control over the player. That alone feels more realistic simulation, than making random errors. So I guess I have to place the stats so that I won't do any random errors. But then again the stats become kind of pointless, as there is only a certain way to put the stats that makes sense, the way that makes you not do random errors.

So I'm hoping, of course I don't know if others feel the same way, that all randomness is removed from the gameplay. To be totally honest, I think it is the worst feature a game like this can have. Think about it, you prepare well, position well, you think you do everything right, and yet hit an error? There's no fun in that.
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Postby JenerationJ » 07 Aug 2008, 04:36

man I wish I could play the demo (I have a mac :'( ...) because I would better understand how Williamz feels.

But watching the vid on youtube, it looked like the player had a hard time keeping the ball in play...and a couple of the errors looked random... but err...umm I can't really give a good review cause I didn't actually play...so...maybe I should just stop talking lol
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Postby JenerationJ » 07 Aug 2008, 04:38

I think the random errors force you to make a better decision with regards to shot selection...now if you use rally shots (safe shots) the whole match and make random errors then there's something wrong... there would be less winners but the consistency should be through the roof.
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Postby JenerationJ » 07 Aug 2008, 04:41

Considering that...a player with less precision but more power would have an easier time hitting cross court winners than down the line winners because down the line winners require more precision...cross court shots come more naturally...

If I'm wrong lemme know 8-)
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