Questions & Analysis

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Questions & Analysis

Postby desertrats2 » 05 Jul 2019, 12:32

Hello ManuTOO,

First of all, congrats for the game. I own both TEM and TE2013 and there has been a notorious progression over time.

I'll throw the question first: just found out today that buying the game via ManaGames was possible. As I understand, I won't get any key in order to have the complete version of the game as I bought it through Steam (until early access comes to an end?), and therefore looking for possible improvements will be a little bit more difficult as I can only simulate 1 set matches and only on hard court. Would you confirm if I am right or not? It is a little bit disappointing as I don't recall having read anything regarding this in TEM2 Steamstore, and thus I am buying an incomplete game without having knowledge about previously. I would even pay some money only to have the key, but I don't really know if this is possible or not.

Anyway, I want to point out some stuff about the gameplay itself, as I have played about 1000 hours in TE2013 trying to improve CPU vs CPU simulation.

The simulation has improved quite a lot. Most remarkable are AI, which is now appliying realistic patterns and serve returning (although unreturned serve % is still slightly low, not much though). There is little room to get more from this two topics.

As the main things that can still be improved I would entitle these:

SERVICE

- Serve speed is lower than in real life I think. Lower ranked players with 30% service power serve at 140 km/h max pace, which is pretty unrealistic. Almost no player among the top 1000 ATP is unable to serve at least at 180 km/h peak on first serve. We even have guys outside the top 300 capable of serving at 240 km/h (Olivetti) and many more capable of serving between 205 - 215 km/h. It is a little painful to see F1 matches with players serving at 115 km/h on first service, and below 100 km/h on second. It gets better once the % service power goes up, but anyway, it remains a little bit low even on players with 90+ service power.

- Players with special service effects enabled almost never hit flat serves, which isn't accurate. I have simulated several games with Karlovic, and as he almost always uses slice, twist and top spin serves, he barely serves 4-5 times per set above 200 km/h, which is his average first serve speed in real life tennis. In fact, slice serving is quite slow, with a +95 power service player serving at 160 km/h using this effect.

- I haven't seen yet a service above 233 km/h, which of course is very fast, but with a guy with 100 power should be able to serve from time to time at least at 245 km/h.

- Players ranging 75-85 serve power almost never serve above 205 km/h and never above 210 km/h. I would rate a player like Thiem at 85 approx, and he can serve quite a lot of times at 210-220 km/h during a match. Also their speed first serve average is 5-10 km/h slower than in real tennis (I get 176-180 average with an 83 service power Federer, which as I said, 5 to 10 km/h slower than real life).


VOLLEYING

- Most improved aspect of the game from previous versions. Maybe half volley dropshots close to the net might be a little bit more efective. Anyway, there is not much to tell about this topic.


BASELINE RALLYING


- The opposite of serving power. Players with high power hit consistently at +140 km/h ground strokes without much penalty. These kind of accelerations go wide or right to the net many more times in real tennis, which has a wider range of speed regarding groundstriking, and many less +120 km/h accelerations.

- Missing easy shots from the middle of the court occurs less often than in real life aswell.

- Backhand slicing is used mostly for defending and net approaching, but there is little pace changing throughout slices and other kind of effects.

- Players can hit flat baseline winners with incredible power upon returning a deadly slice, which is hardly seen in real life tennis.

- Top spin is less noticeable than in real life tennis. E.g. Nadal was unable to have players like Isner well behind the baseline throgh top spin striking, losing many long rallies from the back of the court. Of course I can only simulate 1 set matches in concrete courts, but in even in this surface should be more effective.

- Summarazing, exchanges are more linear than in real life tennis, flat striking is overpowered as slicing and topsping shots are less effective than in real life tennis for pace changing and court positioning.


DROPSHOTS

- This feature has improved quite a bit from TE2013, but it is still less effective than in real life. Dropshot volleys on the other hand are perfect.

- There is little difference in dropshot efficiency between skilled and unskilled players. The same with the other special shots.


CHARACTER SHEET AND PLAYER CHARACTERISTICS

- I miss slicing use rate in the character sheet, as some players slice more often than others. There is an special ability upon slicing which becomes pretty useless as the player uses this shot only for chip and charge or defending, but not for pace changing or attacking.

- The same would apply to serve effects. Some players are able to serve with various effects, but tend to hit first serves mostly flat. One example of what I am trying to say was Roddick, who had a great twist serve, but used it most of the times in second serves, hitting flat with extreme speed on first serves instead.

- Dropshot biasing would be useful too, but this can be tweaked through strategy changes in some degree. Anyway, I think I haven't seen guys like Rublev or Berdych trying dropshots, while others such as Monfils or Brown use and abuse dropshot making, so it would be a nice feature.

- I just seen this morning Isner and other big guys with clunky mobility having higher speed stats than Nadal. I'm pretty sure that this one is going to be fixed onwards, but just for your information.


STRATEGY IN-GAME

- This is an useful tool to adapting during a match, but I still miss some things, although there is a good idea and many of the options are really functional.

- As I said before, slicing rate or hitting with more topspin (regarding the limits of every player) should be avalaible to change during matches.

- Effects upon serving would be useful aswell, whether you want to hit flatter than usual or using more effects.

- Rating taking risks on second serve would be nice to see.


PLAYERS RISING OR WORSENING THROUGHOUT CAREER

- When players have a bad year according to the ranking, their stats tumble down in every aspect of the game at the same rate (more or less). In real life, what happens really is that those players are low on self confidence or their fitness has dropped significantly. We can see guys like Gulbis, who is by now closer to be outside the top 200 than any other thing, still being able to serve at +220 km/h some times, and to hit winners when standing still. The problem with this guys that from one day to another go deep in the rankings is more often than not because of their general physic characteristics and confidence/motivation rather than raw talent (although for instance strength affects hitting power to some extent, as reflexes and tonicity affect other abilities), becoming a lot less consistent, but not losing his touch and power.


It could seem that the game is not enjoyable, and I'm not trying to say that. I just bought the game yesterday and played for 5 straight hours, so it is not. It is a game with great potential, and it can get better (I guess this is the reason why the game is still in early access). My job is strongly based on analysis so I thought that my point of view would be useful.


Anyway, I wanted to thank you for making this amazing game, and for paying attention to the community, more than any other developer around the gaming scene.


Best regards.
desertrats2
tennis curious
 
Messages: 2
Gaming Since: 05 Jul 2019, 12:18

Re: Questions & Analysis

Postby yiph2 » 05 Jul 2019, 17:16

i think if you buy from managames, he will give you the steam key
yiph2
my courts topic29-30911.php :)
yiph2
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Re: Questions & Analysis

Postby manutoo » 06 Jul 2019, 10:01

desertrats2,
1) I guess you copied over the whole Modding SDK, which you shouldn't do, especially this time as the Menu folder had some corrupted file in it (it should be fixed now) ; so at least delete the Menu folder, or better keep only the files you need, else you'll likely have some issue with future updates :blackeye:

2) Lower service speed for low ranked players is an assumed unrealistic trick to give a better feeling of progression to the user.

3) Very fast services are out of pattern and happen actually rarely ; I tuned the average & faster serve speed over a few typical matches of the top players, some secondary players and a couple of big servers, and they all followed a relatively identical pattern.
I may add a "boom boom" talent so some players could get a couple of significantly faster serves per match, though. It'd not be realistic in term of pattern either, but it'd give a nice wow factor, I guess... :P

4) The average 1st serve speed = 100 + Power * 1.06 (for flat serves) ; it also slightly depends on "Consistency - Power", raising & lowering with it (it's especially true for the 2nd serve, IIRC).
Max speed is ~10% above average speed.
So it'd give a ~87% Power for Thiem in his last Wimbledon match, with the fastest serve in par with the 10% bonus : https://www.wimbledon.com/en_GB/scores/stats/1133.html

5) There's still no pure unforced errors in TEM2 ; ie: if the ball has no difficulty, the CPU has the time to prepare his strike and he aims far from the lines, the success rate is 100% ; the real-life success in this case is closer of 98%. It wouldn't work very well in a video game, and even less in TE because of the lack of feedback from the animation.

6) I might tune a bit more the high topspin vs the low topsin, but if you check the clay bounce, you'll see it's very close of real life

7) The main effect of drop shot skill is to be able to do drop shots on slightly more difficult balls

8) Most Player skills are random ; so if you want them to be more realistic, you can tune them in the player base and send me the result so I'll put it in the official base. :yes:

9) I'm not very happy with how top player skills go down when they have a bad year, but it's really difficult to make this work in another way and keep everything correctly balanced. :sweat:
Maybe I'll get to it one day, though.

10) Thanks for all your other feeback ; I'm taking note of it. :-)
ManuTOO
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Re: Questions & Analysis

Postby desertrats2 » 06 Jul 2019, 20:16

Thanks for the reply.

I am right now compiling some data on serving. I'll come back when I feel I have enough information to present and I'll answer your message then aswell.

Best regards.
desertrats2
tennis curious
 
Messages: 2
Gaming Since: 05 Jul 2019, 12:18


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