Strike speed on hit & before rebound ..?

General discussions about the version 2006 of Tennis Elbow

Strike speed on hit & before rebound ..?

Postby manutoo » 03 Jun 2008, 16:46

Hello,

I'd like to know the ball speed out of the racket for any strike (example: the service), and the speed just before the rebound, to have an idea of the speed loss due to air resistance...

Anyone knows where I could find this ..?
ManuTOO
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Postby kyuuji » 03 Jun 2008, 18:01

No sorry...
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Postby manutoo » 05 Jun 2008, 07:38

Ok, I finally found my answers here :
http://www.advancedtennis.com/results/ballspeedmph.htm
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Postby Xuxa Kuerten » 23 Jul 2008, 07:09

Hi. I've found on this thread (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/archive/index.php/t-38289.html) some informations regarding your issue. Apparently Fernando González of Chile is able to hit forehands as fast as 200 Kmh (125 Mph) !

On this video you can see a 120 mph forehand shot by Gael Monfils of France.

Personally I think that Marat Safin of Russia usually hits the ball faster than 80 mph on the baseline; the fastest one-handed backhand I've seen was from Guga Kuerten. Women tennis players like Sharapova, the Williams sisters and Davenport may be able to hit balls above 105 Mph, I guess.

I don't know if these are useful data for you, I'm trying to help. I really think Tennis Elbow is a great game!

Greetings from Brazil and apologies for my bad english.[/url]
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Postby manutoo » 23 Jul 2008, 07:21

I'm pretty sure all these numbers are wrong, and that the mistakes come from a misunderstanding between MPH & KMH..! :)

I just looked the Monfils, there's no way it's going at 120MPH ( already equals to a very fast serve), but it's very likely going at 120KMH ( = a quite good ground stroke acceleration)

If it was possible to hit a 120mph ground stroke like this, people wouldn't serve, they would do forehand instead... :whistle:

Last year, I saw several 160 kmh forehands from Gonzales at Melbourne, and it was way more impressive than this forehand... :roll:
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Postby Guest » 23 Jul 2008, 17:27

Manutoo, I agree with you that is very common to see those mistakes involving mph and kmh. :lol:

In fact, many comments from the thread I've linked and specially from youtube's make this missunderstanding.

But I do believe that is possible to hit forehands faster than 120 mph (193 kmh). I don't know if the broadcasting of US Open of the last year was the same for everyone, but here in Brazil they have shown (using the same tecnology of the "challenge system") many groundstrokes that were hit at speeds faster than 100 mph. Federer have shot one at 112 Mph (~179 Kmh) and Nadal made a passing shot at 113 mph (~181 kmh). I unfortunately don't have the videos, though I'm sure I'm not mistaken (we use metric system here in Brazil).
:wink:

See, I was a junior player here and I have shots measured at about 80 mph. I honestly think that it just wouldn't be possible to hit forehands instead of serves during a match because as you know, necessarily those balls fall just near the baseline; it's physically impossible, however, to put them inside the serve square (sorry, I don't know how to say this properly :oops: ). There have been an impressive evolution in the custom os tennis racquets. Pete Sampras said recently here in São Paulo (on a interview during a seniors tour) that these changes have allowed him to serve at least as fast as he were able to when retired. Maybe these transformations have made the baseline shots (and the tennis game in general) even faster over the last years. :shock:
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Postby manutoo » 23 Jul 2008, 17:55

I was kinda kidding about the forehand replacing the service, coz of course the need to aim the square require to hit the ball higher... ;)

But I'm still very dubious about the speed you claim.
I guess I could believe it only when I'll have seen them by my own eyes.
The 160kmh Gonzales' forehands were clearly way faster than most ground strokes I saw in my entire tennis fan life...

And anyway, it's hard to believe that the strike developing the most power ( = the service), could be almost equaled by the forehand, especially on a regular basis. (although I can easily believe that a record gets around of 110mph)

For example, look the stats of the last Fed-Nadal match here :
http://www.wimbledon.org/en_GB/scores/s ... 127ms.html

Fastest Serve : Fed 129 MPH Nadal 120 MPH
Average 1st Serve Speed: Fed 117 MPH Nad 112 MPH

though I'm sure I'm not mistaken (we use metric system here in Brazil).

If you use metric system in Brazil, why do u quote speeds in MPH from the Hawk Eye ..? If it was in Brazil, the Hawk eye should have shown KMH, no ?
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Postby Serena_Fan » 23 Jul 2008, 23:33

In the 2004 wimbledon semois Serena hit a 97mph backhand. And Gael Monfils does own the record for hardest forehand at 120mph.
But in the wimbledon final Federer hit a 105mph forehand winner. so it is possible.

p.s.
How can I hit sharper angles? I take the ball early but the angles arent coming like they should.
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Postby Xuxa Kuerten » 25 Jul 2008, 05:49

I was kinda kidding about the forehand replacing the service, coz of course the need to aim the square require to hit the ball higher...


Oh, sorry! I honestly didn't get your joke at that time ... :lol: :oops:

And anyway, it's hard to believe that the strike developing the most power ( = the service), could be almost equaled by the forehand, especially on a regular basis.


Manutoo, I don't know if I'm being clear, but what I'm trying to say is that only that very beautiful and powerful groundstroke that happens only once in a while (maybe only one on a whole match) may overpass the 110~115 Mph barrier. In my first post, when I was talking about Marat Safin (who were used to have the "heaviest" baseline game in my opinion - along with Guga), I've mentioned that he is able, on a good day, to hit during the entire match balls faster than 80 Mph. What I'm not saying is that a normal attacking/flat shot is sent to the other side of the net with those impressive speeds.

Fastest Serve : Fed 129 MPH Nadal 120 MPH
Average 1st Serve Speed: Fed 117 MPH Nad 112 MPH


This was a fantastic match, huh? But look, the difference between the fastest serve and the average serve is not so big because the dynamics that are envolved on/in (sorry, I never learned prepositions) the serve are quite different from those present on a groundstroke. As you know, when serving, we have a notable control of the whole thing: we choose the toss of the ball, the position of our body, of the racquet, etc. It is a comfortable position that allows us to be much more consistent that when hitting a ball during a rally. However, at the same time, when the opposite person shots a reachable high speed ball, it is possible for us to use the power that has been generated and even add some power. Agassi, Nalbandian and Hewitt are outstanding examples of counter-punchers (the first two of them are the best "returning-serves" that I've ever seen). So, under very special occasions, I think that it is possible, in fact, to hit a groundstroke at very impressive speeds. It is important to add that both Roger and Rafa have the ability to generally be very consistent when serving. Great fast servers, like Roddick (or even not so great ones, like Feliciano Lopes, who served yesterday the third fastest serve of history at 242 KMH - unfortunately the link is in portuguese, but I may translate it for you if you want to: http://www2.uol.com.br/tenisbrasil/diaadia/ult138u36893.htm) usually have an average first serve of about 210-215 Kmh, but once in a while may hit one scud of 240-245 kmh (the distance between the fastest and the average serve is, in these cases, much bigger; the same ratio, I think, may be used when comparing a normal groundstroke of James Blake with one of those that he does (and hits inside the court) when jumps and almost literally dives towards the ball ... :lol: In fact, I've seen Roger Federer hit (and mistake) a serve with a speed of 222 Kmh in Australian Open this year. I guess the match was against Djokovic, but I may be wrong.

If you use metric system in Brazil, why do u quote speeds in MPH from the Hawk Eye ..? If it was in Brazil, the Hawk eye should have shown KMH, no ?


Manutoo, I've used the imperial system on many times here on these posts mainly because I thought that the majority of fans that read this forum were from US or England. But you are from France (along with many people from this discussion board, I guess), so maybe this worriness of mine may be unnecessary. The second reason for that because in many cases, the situation that I've read or watched and then described here happened under the presence of radar guns that measured the marks in Mph. So I was trying to be precise. The third and last reason is that the radar guns that were used when I seriouslly trained were all imported from US. So all marks were measured in mph, and unfortunatelly there was no switch button to kph. Most people here are not used with this system, so the junior players commonly were not excited with this stuff. Only a very very few tournaments here in São Paulo have these radar guns, and they usually don't work, or are wrongly placed, and then bizarre numbers start to be shown during the matches.

Sorry again for my macarronic english ... :wink: :oops: . Greetings from Brazil.
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Postby Guest » 25 Jul 2008, 06:18

Oh, I've forget to say (and this may help you, Manutoo). I don't have a radar gun here at home, so I traditionally record (with a camcorder) my serves and then try to determinate their speeds. To measure them like the radar guns is impossible, because their systems are based on frequency; so I try to calculate frame by frame, trying to set the minimum time interval under which I´m able to stipulate the distance traveled by the ball (usually after the first frame it is nearly 1.7, 1.8 m distant from my racquet). So I reach I result that is not sooo different of what is measured with a pro radar gun. The interesting thing is that I also calculate the speed of the ball when it reaches the end of the court (so it travelled about 24 m). When serving flat, its speed diminushes of about 50 %; when serving with top spin or slice, the final speed of the ball is only 35-30 % of when it just had been hit by the racquet! :shock:
I guess the numbers regarding the desacceleration of the ball that you've founded, Manutoo, are pretty acurate; but I would add, based on what I wrote above, that using effects on the ball (specially the slice) may reduce even more its speed, obviouslly due to the air resistance that interacts with more strenght when the ball isn't just going straight; it spends the majority of its quantity of movement when rotating (I hope that our undergraduate colleagues from Physics school don't read this thread :lol: )
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Postby manutoo » 25 Jul 2008, 08:13

just 2 things :
Lopez average 1st serve speed is between 116 & 124mph ( 187 & 200kmh), which is already very good...
http://www.wimbledon.org/en_GB/scores/s ... 122ms.html
http://www.wimbledon.org/en_GB/scores/s ... 104ms.html
http://www.wimbledon.org/en_GB/scores/s ... 116ms.html

I also calculate the speed of the ball when it reaches the end of the court

what is the end of the court ? The opposite baseline ?
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Postby Xuxa Kuerten » 25 Jul 2008, 08:41

what is the end of the court ? The opposite baseline ?


Yeah, exactly!
Bad, bad english ... :oops:
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