Mana Games

[Lucian86]

Very good thoughts kartman ! very professional I'd say !
Thanks for the appreciation !

[manutoo]

kartman & Everybody, (actually I'm using kartman's post to clarify a few misunderstandings)

>> I think the attractiveness of the new animations is that they may attract new buyers from outside this community

the point is that most people outside the community don't know about the Modded anims, and never will.
How many people around here actually bought the game only coz of the anims, not much, if any at all.
I know ITST started to look at the game more coz of the Modded anims (in part), but they were not bundled in the game at that time.

>> A difference in animation quality could have a big impact on a review

No ; I don't think there's 1 professional reviewer on this planet that can make the difference between an approximative Federer forehand & its exact replica.

>> and could cause a lot of extra sales

Even if previous answer was "yes", here, it'll still be "No". Reviews I got bring very very few sales by themselves.
Maybe reviews on main stream game sites would bring a good bunch of sales, but to get reviews on this kind of sites, I don't need top notch realistic anim : AAA games (ie: Top Spin) have quite poor realistic anims, but they got shit-load more sales than TE & great reviews anyway.
Right now, TE is already the favourite tennis game of most tennis lovers. What I really need to do to raise my sales is to reach more tennis game fans (and possibly regular video game players). These ones don't require mainly realistic anim (see above), but good rendering, and lot of content.
Don't believe me ? Check here, mostly Steam users who never heard of the game before, not one complaining about the quality of animation : http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... d=93033839


NOLE.LUCKY,
your idea is not bad, but it would require a much bigger user base & Modders base to justify the time I'd spend to put everything in place.
And on a more moral point of view, I don't like much to have people with less money having a less complete game, though, so I really prefer the free Modding approach. (and free updates when sales allow that)


Lucian,
I think you lie to yourself when you say you want money only for bundling your anims with game ; you just want money for your anims, bundled or not ; the way you reacted, ie: quit, to my refusal just shown that.
I did my best to give you an explained & respectful answer ; I didn't force you to create anim, I didn't force you to bundle them with the game, and I never made you hope you'd get pay for them. On the opposite, I always tried my best to answer your questions & fulfil your feature requests, either or not it'd bring me sales, but only coz I always enjoy to see people enthusiast about my game & bringing good Mods to it.
You have the right to retire from Modding coz you want to do something else and your mind wanders on new things, like everybody does sooner or later, but don't try to put this on me.

[Stewart]

You said is very good.

[djarvik]

Well explained Manu.

The notion that perfect Animations somehow lead to better sales is wrong. Graphics are the main sales driver (unfortunately), flowed closely by game-play. I think TE has a LOT more market to capture out there at it's current form. So any improvement to game-play Manu offers is only a welcomed addition. Animations are a great "perk", but without the "platform", they are useless.

I understand, as I said, why Lucian wants to get paid for "work performed", I just don't think his angle of "putting them in the current game" somehow justifies it. The reason Manu puts them in is because EXISTING members like the idea. He really doesn't have to do it, as illustrated by ITST Tour. You can do it yourself and create your own experience....even an ON-LINE experience! That was the whole idea by making a game "Mod Friendly" and "open", one can make it into what it wants and play that version.

If I were Lucian, and I was serious about animations, I would ask Manu for credit (which he did) and add this to my portfolio, while expanding my knowledge and maybe finding a full time position at a big Games developer. But that's just me....

[ComeonANDY!!]

Well explained Manu.

The notion that perfect Animations somehow lead to better sales is wrong. Graphics are the main sales driver (unfortunately), flowed closely by game-play. I think TE has a LOT more market to capture out there at it's current form. So any improvement to game-play Manu offers is only a welcomed addition. Animations are a great "perk", but without the "platform", they are useless.

I understand, as I said, why Lucian wants to get paid for "work performed", I just don't think his angle of "putting them in the current game" somehow justifies it. The reason Manu puts them in is because EXISTING members like the idea. He really doesn't have to do it, as illustrated by ITST Tour. You can do it yourself and create your own experience....even an ON-LINE experience! That was the whole idea by making a game "Mod Friendly" and "open", one can make it into what it wants and play that version.

If I were Lucian, and I was serious about animations, I would ask Manu for credit (which he did) and add this to my portfolio, while expanding my knowledge and maybe finding a full time position at a big Games developer. But that's just me....

You know that djarvik! Manutoo knows that! Even i know that But unfortunately Lucian isn't clever enough to understand that

For a guy with such a good following to turn around and say "i'm going to retire" All because he's not getting his own way is ridiculous IMO, so much for.. "i'm still going to make free animations"!

Like djarvik said previous, it should be a hobbie! And once money is involved the situation becomes uncomfortable.

You have many fans Lucian,who don't want you to retire and also the fact that manutoo thinks your animations are good enough to go into his original game would be plenty of motivation for me to keep going, but that's just me.

EDIT:

If you don't want your animations in manutoo's game, because you want paying - Tell him not to include them, and then we'll download them from you for free & Say many thanks to you for these brilliant animations, and then everyone's a winner

[MarianoEG]

...- I'd likely pay for anims for TE2014/15 for players which are still not inside the game & who have different styles from the ones already in the game (but not now, as I won't be working on next TE edition before a while)

well... maybe should be a solution , Lucian only do anims for highers players, maybe he, and all anim maker, cant start to make something for this...
or probably was a joke ¿?

[Lucian86]

Lucian,
I think you lie to yourself when you say you want money only for bundling your anims with game ; you just want money for your anims, bundled or not ; the way you reacted, ie: quit, to my refusal just shown that.

If this was true, I would have kept the animation for myself only
Whatever my reasons are, there are my demands you like or not. Not going to explain myself again.

The notion that perfect Animations somehow lead to better sales is wrong. Graphics are the main sales driver (unfortunately), flowed closely by game-play.

I simply disagree ! Without modesty, the animations are very good and I really really think will capture the eyes of at least 9 people in the long term (to be "gentle")

I think TE has a LOT more market to capture out there at it's current form. So any improvement to game-play Manu offers is only a welcomed addition. Animations are a great "perk", but without the "platform", they are useless.

I disagree again ! New potential buyers don't know about these improvements...you have to play it a lot to understand all that...But yeah, the first thing that you love when you play this game for the first time is of course the "gameplay" which I think is now pretty much at a very high level; I don't think Manutoo can make though something extraordinary that will totally change the first impression of the first people will saw the game...What will blow up minds instead is this gameplay together with better graphics, better animations, sounds, menus and so on; here there are a lot of things to do !

For instance, Manutoo could make separate animations for the top spins, running and short shots, low, medium and high balls, drop shots, more animations in the serve waiting and return stances...there are a lot of things that can be done here....I understand it takes a lot of time for that and I think he's basically alone managing this game....well, you have to invest if you want to really expand the market...there's no other solution and these are the things that must be done. The gameplay is awesome already; I don't think alone can grow up the sale exponentially...You know better Djarvik why some people still prefer Top Spin 4 despite the fact there's a HUGE gap in gameplay and realism.

I understand, as I said, why Lucian wants to get paid for "work performed", I just don't think his angle of "putting them in the current game" somehow justifies it. The reason Manu puts them in is because EXISTING members like the idea. He really doesn't have to do it, as illustrated by ITST Tour. You can do it yourself and create your own experience....even an ON-LINE experience! That was the whole idea by making a game "Mod Friendly" and "open", one can make it into what it wants and play that version.

Djarvik. with all the respect, that's not how things works in reality.. I have enough proven knowledge to make that kind of a statement; you're putting it in another dimension...let's talk facts here; official mods or not, everybody who has a marginal effect on a bussiness succes has the right to be rewarded; not talking about the "legal right" (depends on the contracts) but the right to ask for it and believe me, those business owners or managers will think a lot about it.

If I were Lucian, and I was serious about animations, I would ask Manu for credit (which he did) and add this to my portfolio, while expanding my knowledge and maybe finding a full time position at a big Games developer. But that's just me....

Well, that would be great but I think you're overvaluing my skills in this field. I barely know how to use 3ds max....I'm not even so talented; actually I'm pretty bad in arts...I'm more like a "math guy"....what you really need IMO to make a good animation is just "common sense"...that's all...common sense and watch the details closely; don't get satisfied easily (when I watch for instance some of my old anims now, they really look bad).

Hope somebody will be able in the future after Neeky, M4n4c0r and I to create some really high quality animations...Technically it's not hard at all.

[ComeonANDY!!]

I notice he doesn't quote my wise words I'M PROBABLY TO CLEVER FOR HIM Bye bye Lucian

[djarvik]

Djarvik. with all the respect, that's not how things works in reality.. I have enough proven knowledge to make that kind of a statement; you're putting it in another dimension...let's talk facts here; official mods or not, everybody who has a marginal effect on a bussiness succes has the right to be rewarded; not talking about the "legal right" (depends on the contracts) but the right to ask for it and believe me, those business owners or managers will think a lot about it.

Lucian,

I am well aware of the reality of a business world. I am in it quite heavily. I was referring more to the "situation at hand". Will your animations yield 9 NEW sales? Maybe. But so can a simple post/mentioning of the game on another Tennis forum. If Manu wanted to create a some sort of affiliated network, and allow people to "bring new sales" and be reimbursed for it, then yeah, sure, I would want to get paid for EVERY contribution I make. But as it stands - this is not the case. Your argument that the "animation can bring 9 more sales" is equivalent of my argument "ITST brought new sales", you saying you supplying in-game content - I say you supplying a "marginal improvement" to the games content, while we provide a steady marketing arm with a full supported tour, updates, mods etc... So should we ask for moneys? I don't think so. Why? Cause this is our hobby. We do this in our spare time for personal enjoyment/satisfaction and never intent it to be "for-profit", we are purely non-profit organization and people.

You not wrong that Manu benefits from it, and we do too. While his benefit is partially financial and I am SURE of it - personal tennis fanaticism , ours is purely "personal". I ENJOY doing what I do in my spare time and I know once money gets involved - I would not enjoy it as much, it would become work.

Like you said, you have all the right to ask, all I said it was "weak" as I knew where it is going to lead (the discussion).

You made MANY valid points, I respect that. I still disagree about "correct" animations being a sales drive one needs to look at ALL big tennis titles out-there to see that it is simply not so. Graphics and presentation (nicely pointed out by you) are the key.

Judging by your last paragraph, it looks like it is a hobby for you, and you DO enjoy it (otherwise you would retire earlier), and so I hope you will not abandon your hobby because of this thread, it would be sad to see. Try to see other then financial values in your hobby, seek relaxation, serenity, support, fans. If your current financial situation is tough - by all means, create a Donation link - I will be the first to help.

[Lucian86]

You not wrong that Manu benefits from it, and we do too. While his benefit is partially financial and I am SURE of it - personal tennis fanaticism , ours is purely "personal". I ENJOY doing what I do in my spare time and I know once money gets involved - I would not enjoy it as much, it would become work.

Can't blame you for that ! on the contrary but you know, everybody has his own objectives and must be respected for that and still, your patch (a great one btw) it's not being used officially. Believe me, I woudn't have asked anything to Manutoo if it wasn't for this specific reason. I really don't think it's fair my anims to be used for free in the official game.

That's all I had to say ! Good luck to you all

[ComeonANDY!!]

It's youtube where i came across this brilliant game, i was watching the FRENCH OPEN and accidently clicked onto TE11 and found the game i'd always dreamed off! I'd seen sams and the ITST''s patches and later came across Dilima's,i was so impressed i bought the game

<<<Would i have bought it without the modds?>>>

Yes i would - The gameplay was there, i loved the fact that there's 100's of players, A great ranking system! And more importantly futures & Challengers were included - A first for a tennis game

[ComeonANDY!!]

I'm with Lucian on this one.

So why are you with Lucian on this one Sam? A bit more info wouldn't go a miss

[manutoo]

djarvik
that was some wise words from you there..!

Lucian86,
ok, finally, I think I understand what's wrong for you.

The problem is not that I don't want to pay and don't care about bundling or not your last anims in the game.
Your problem is with your anims that are already bundled with the game now, right ?

And I also know why you didn't say so : coz you know you're not right to ask money for them now, but you still feel swindled, so you're asking money for the new ones, to try to make it globally right for you.

So :
1- I'm sorry you feel like this
2- You should have told so at 1st, that would have saved some time & misunderstanding for everybody
3- Unfortunately for you, I won't pay for the anims that are already in game, coz :

a) we had a clear agreement about this, and as I said earlier, I didn't force you to provide them to me, and you had a long time to think about it (you provided some of them for v1.0e in June, and still some other for v1.0f in August, more than 2 months later)

b) I spent a lot of time cleaning & improving your anims, and I then gave them back to you ; so that time I spent on them is already an additional payment on my side in addition to the free game Key

c) as I also said earlier, I don't do marketing around your anims, I'm not trying to make money out of them ; I'm just thinking about enhancing experience of existing customers, not grabbing new sales

4- Unfortunately (again) I can't propose you to remove your anims from the game, coz :

a) all the reasons exposed in 3- , especially 3-a)

b) then I'd feel I'm the one blackmailed in that story

c) that'd also make existing registered users (and not future ones) disappointed, and I hope it's not what you want

Right now, I don't have a solution to make both of us happy ; as I don't want to pay to bundle your new animations in the game, I hope at least you'll believe I'm of good faith when I think I'm not exploiting your anim and not making money out of them, and you won't keep hard feelings about all of this for too long.

[Lucian86]

And I also know why you didn't say so : coz you know you're not right to ask money for them now, but you still feel swindled, so you're asking money for the new ones, to try to make it globally right for you.

Come on Manutoo...be serious ok...You're making me laugh right now...I NEVER EVER INTENDED TO ASK YOU MONEY FOR MY OLD ANIMATIONS...What do you think I am ?
You have made people believe here that:
- I want to be paid always for doing my animations
- I want people to pay extra (the survey you made leads to this conclusion)
- I want you to pay me for my old anims that have been released into the official game wasting also your time explaining why you woudn't

I specifically gave you the rights to publish them for free...I knew what I was doing....Really, I find it quite offensive
Why do I ask you money now ? first of all because I can; doesn't matter what I did in the past....2nd because I did a fine job on these ones; they're complete and smooth in the transition from one anim to another.
What people don't know as well is that I was willing to give ALL THE IMPROVEMENTS OF THE OLD ANIMATIONS that I already gave to you FOR FREE...So don't come now to tell me that I want you to pay me for my old anims, to remove them from the game, ecc

This is what I specifically asked you:
"Hi Emmanuel !

If I understood well, you're going to release TE 2013 for the beginning of the next year. About my animations and the possibility of inserting them into the official game I have a proposal to make.

I'm referring to Federer's animations and part of Djokovic and Nadal's ones. I worked hard on them and they're very good quality like many people appreciated; they have correct sweetspots and good gameplay feeling (after testing them repeatedly). For that reason, I'll willing to give it you for the TE 2013 with a price.

You're a professional and I think you'll undertand that; I'm pretty sure a lot of people bought the game (new guys who saw my videos and other who switched from the crack versions) also thanks to my animations which are highly regarded by most.

Concretely, here's my proposal:

FEDERER'S PACK:
-"backhand regular and acceleration" + "backhand volley regular and acceleration" + "smash forehand regular and acceleration" + "smash backhand regular + acceleration" (yet to finish this one): ALL FOR FREE since they're just little improvements from the last ones that I already gave to you
- "wait" + "return stance" + "move left and move right" (which has the same racquet holding in the waiting position for a better looking view): 5 EURO
- "forehand volley regular and acceleration": 10 EURO
- "service regular and acceleration": 30 EURO (worked a lot on them)
- "forehand regular and acceleration": 20 EURO
- "slice backhand": 5 EURO (a very improved version)
- "slice forehand": 5 EURO
ALL THE ANIMATIONS SHARE THE SAME INITIAL AND FINAL BIPED POSITION WHICH IS THE ONE FROM THE "WAIT ANIMATION" FOR A SMOOTH TRANSITION FROM ONE ANIMATION TO ANOTHER

NADAL's pack:
- "backhand regular and acceleration" FOR FREE (same reason as before)
- the same volleys, smashes, slice forehand from Federer's pack, move left and right animations, ALL adapted to the same "wait" initial and final position: FOR FREE
- "service regular and acceleration": 15 EURO (completely revamped)
- "wait" + "return stance": 5 EURO
- "slice backhand": 5 EURO
ALL THE ANIMATIONS SHARE THE SAME INITIAL AND FINAL BIPED POSITION WHICH IS THE ONE FROM THE "WAIT ANIMATION" FOR A SMOOTH TRANSITION FROM ONE ANIMATION TO ANOTHER

DJOKOVIC's pack:
- "wait" + "return stance": 5 EURO
- "service regular and acceleration": FOR FREE
- the same volleys, smashes, slice forehand from Federer's pack, move left and right animations, ALL adapted to the same "wait" initial and final position: FOR FREE
- "slice backhand" 10 EURO
The improved backhands and forehands are based on M4n4c0r's animations so I cannot sell them; besides that, I need his authorization to give them to you. By my part, I'm willing to give them for free.
AGAIN; ALL THE ANIMATIONS SHARE THE SAME INITIAL AND FINAL BIPED POSITION WHICH IS THE ONE FROM THE "WAIT ANIMATION" FOR A SMOOTH TRANSITION FROM ONE ANIMATION TO ANOTHER


As soon as I'll be able to use two serve versions, I'll personally create videos about these animations and make sure to promote them the best I can.

I'm going to create Murray's animations too; if you whish I'll create others too by your request

Tell me what you think

All the best

Lucian Cucuteanu (alias Lucian86)"

Whatever, let's end this discussion here !

Thanks for this great game Manutoo...I'll still playing it...that's for sure (is the only videogame I play in the last 2 years)

[kartman]

Well, maybe that list puts a bit too much emphasis on amount work of time spent on it, rather than on how useful the strokes are to increase sales. If Manutoo would have appointed a paid animation developer I'm sure he would have let him create standard service, FH, BH animations of other players first (Safin, Agassi, Ivanisevic, etc) rather than working on a subtle detail, such as making 2 service animations for a player who already has good animations.

Also, in my opinion the things in this pack that are most likely to impress a new player or reviewer is the fact that there are 2 versions (regular and accelerated) of FHs and BHs. When I play a new tennis game and I see that the FH strokes have more than 1 animation, that is something I notice immediately. However, it seems that if Manutoo pays for this pack it would only make a difference for the Federer FH, as the rest of the FHs and BHs are already included or not part of the pack. So, from a pure marketing point-of-view about this specific pack I understand Manutoo's point well.

Still, I think it's a pity it had to end with a hopeless argument like this. If Manutoo and Lucian could have communicated a bit more, to adjust eachother's expectations, a much happier solution could've been found, maybe not so much for the current animations but more for possible future animations.

Just one thing about Manutoo's comment :

What I really need to do to raise my sales is to reach more tennis game fans (and possibly regular video game players). These ones don't require mainly realistic anim (see above), but good rendering, and lot of content.
Don't believe me ? Check here, mostly Steam users who never heard of the game before, not one complaining about the quality of animation : http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... d=93033839

The reason that nobody complains about the animations is that the animations in this game are very good!
I agree that to sell a game to the mass market overall 3D graphics quality is the most important point. TE2011 doesn't have that, and will probably never have that. However, it compensates for that with good gameplay and with good animations (notice that several people on steam gave the animations positive comments!). So, to keep TE2011/TE2013 popular, I think Manutoo should keep improving and marketing its strong points: the gameplay and the animations.