Unrealistic parts of this game!

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Re: Unrealistic parts of this game!

Postby iLoveRF » 14 Aug 2012, 01:16

Hello manutoo,

I've been trying to make my peace with the game for awhile but I've encountered some problems (I'm playing on Pro 10):

1. I never could hit a lob winner when the opponent is at the net. I tried both offensive and aggressive types but they can always smash the ball.

2. When Nadal hit a wide service (on his second serv), it's really hard to return them because the ball seems to be higher. I can't even see the safe zone(when ball preview is on) & on the times that I reach the ball, my shot is too weak because of my position.

3. Although now I can win against top guys like Nadal, Djokovic ... , When I play against Nadal I still think that he seems to be overpowered and superficially good.
I've already lowered some of Nadal's skills (so he has 750 points left) and increased Federer's skills' (he has 570 points left) to make it easier for me.
I thought maybe I'm missing something here so I decided to let the CPU plays as Federer too and I watch the match to see how it goes. I've set their skill to Pro 10 and started a match at US Open court. Nadal won the match with a 6-2 score. Then I started a new match on Barclays ATP World Tour Finals court to see if Federer could get him this time but Nadal won (6-3). My last hope was Wimbledon! So I started a new match for the third time. and this time also Nadal won 7-6(2).
Obviously on grass the match was more competitive and close but I can't understand why he lost these matches on the surfaces that normally favours his play style considering the fact that his skills were set higher than Nadal (a difference of 180 points overall).
I don't know if it's Nadal's Top spin or his play style (Defender) or something else. Maybe playstyles are not balanced well.

thanks
iLoveRF
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Re: Unrealistic parts of this game!

Postby manutoo » 14 Aug 2012, 05:16

iLoveRF,

1. It's possible to do a winning aggressive lob if you have a high lob skill (ie: around 80-100%), stand near the baseline, and if the CPU sticks to the net ; it's far from automatic, but it happens sometimes ; but the problem is that the CPU usually doesn't stick to the net before he hits 2 or 3 volleys. Defensive lobs never gives a winner, though (except maybe if your opponent is super slow & you got lucky ;) ).

2. It might be a twisted serve : the ball is usually slow enough so you can do a B1 shot within the Danger Zone without too much penalties

3. Yup, defender style with high topspin skill is slightly overpowered (especially on clay) ; also Federer isn't exactly Federer, as there's no special AI for him, nor special ability (ie: no early ball hit), so he's noticeably less good than in real life, while the Defender style fits well Nadal's style (ie: no need much brain to play like Nadal, unlike Fed ;) ).
I did a few test matches, and the results were a bit more fair than yours ; I took best Nadal vs best Federer (from the Season mode player select screen), which gives Nadal 1899 points & Fed 1914 :
- Rafael Nadal (Pro10) def. Roger Federer (Pro10) : 6/3 6/4 - BG Cement
- Rafael Nadal (Pro10) def. Roger Federer (Pro10) : 6/4 4/6 6/4 - Indoor Hard
- Rafael Nadal (Pro10) def. Roger Federer (Pro10) : 4/6 6/0 6/0 - Clay
- Roger Federer (Pro10) def. Rafael Nadal (Pro10) : 7/5 6/3 - Grass

Fed got his stamina depleted after 1st set on clay... :sweat: it shows the problem with AI that defends significantly better than it attacks, and thus they do too long rallies way too often...

CPU vs CPU matches is something I'd like to improve a lot if I get to work on TEM2.
ManuTOO
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Re: Unrealistic parts of this game!

Postby BallBasher » 14 Aug 2012, 13:17

manutoo wrote:iLoveRF,

3. Yup, defender style with high topspin skill is slightly overpowered (especially on clay) ; also Federer isn't exactly Federer, as there's no special AI for him, nor special ability (ie: no early ball hit), so he's noticeably less good than in real life, while the Defender style fits well Nadal's style (ie: no need much brain to play like Nadal, unlike Fed ;) ).


Isn't this a good reason to have a talent system in place like TEM or Top Spin 4 for the next installment of the series? (TE 2013?) Fed could have his "Early Ball Hit" talent, Graf could have her "slice mastery" talent and Sampras could have his serve talents and "net feel" talents. Each one would affect the way the CPU or the player plays, giving more variety both to the way you play and the opponents you face as well. As part of this system you could have a talent or a skill that affects how good a player is on a high or low ball. That way Federer wouldn't be able to constantly hit hard backhands off high balls like he does in this game, which he can't do in real tennis. Other guys like Djokovic or Kuerten would however.

@iloveRF: I take it you do know about the big shoulder height acceleration bonus for punchers, PBs and all-courters? Nadal is actually pretty easy to beat on clay or any other surface if you if you can get a precise well-timed acceleration forehand off once in a while. Unlike the real Nadal, the CPU Nadal doesn't pound your backhand all the time if you play as Federer so its easier to get Nadal on the defensive. It also helps that Federer's backhand isn't as much of a liability against Nadal in this game as it is in real tennis. You do have to stand further behind the baseline to get better accelerations though.
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Re: Unrealistic parts of this game!

Postby iLoveRF » 14 Aug 2012, 14:23

@manutoo
thanks for the reply, yeah I saw that Federer's stamina ran out very fast because they played a lot of long rallies in the match.

@BallBasher
I think talent system is a good idea to have in the game and I would love to see that CPU players have some kind of intelligence (so that they can take advantage of opponent's weak abilities) but I think it's really hard to implement it in the game
iLoveRF
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Re: Unrealistic parts of this game!

Postby kartman » 14 Aug 2012, 23:57

Has it ever been considered to give varied players a small early hit advantage, similar to that of counters but much more subtle? I rarely hear people say that varied players are overpowered, so there might be some room left to improve their overall level. Players with a lot of variation in their gameplay probably like to hit the ball early as well, like Federer.
But of course you have to be careful to adjust the game too much to match the playing style of just one player (Federer), if that is not realistic for other players.
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Re: Unrealistic parts of this game!

Postby manutoo » 15 Aug 2012, 03:51

BallBasher,
yup, I'd like to integrate Talents into the real time match engine, but it takes long time to setup & tune everything ; that's why I'm thinking about doing it 1st for TEM2.

kartman,
I don't think all varied players should have such ability, at least if the aim is to propose more realistic & varied CPU play styles ; the separate talents should likely bring more variety & fine tuning.
ManuTOO
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Re: Unrealistic parts of this game!

Postby kartman » 15 Aug 2012, 05:09

Yeah, for sure I'd agree that adding talents would be more realistic and interesting than changing just 1 parameter for all players of a playing style. It just sounds a lot more complicated to do. But it's great to hear that something like that may be coming in the future.
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