Unrealistic parts of this game!

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Unrealistic parts of this game!

Postby iLoveRF » 31 Jul 2012, 06:29

First I want to say that this game is really great, Thank you!
these are things that I think are needed to be fixed in the future updates to make it a more realistic game :

1. When I'm playing as Federer against Nadal ,he uses backhand slices very often.the problem is that his slices are short and low which is difficult to handle but when i hit a backhand slice it looks like they're deeper and higher which is really odd considering the fact that Federer has the best backhand slices in tennis!
BTW I've changed Federer's Top spin to 0 while Nadal's is 100 but it's all the same :(
Also I don't know why there is no specific quality for slices because i think they're very different shots than regular backhand shots and require different skill but it sounds like in this game every player can hit slices just as good as other players. You can't use backhand slices as Federer do in his game and that's really a let down because it's really a big part of his game( you can't use it as a weapon like he does; it's just a defensive shot to keep you in the rally for a few more seconds!).

2. When I'm returning Nadal's service, i have to stay far behind the baseline (sometimes the player is outside of my view!) to be in the "Safe Zone" or at least not in the "Danger zone", and it really frustrates me when Nadal hit a drop shot right away while I'm miles away from the baseline. If you watch Federer's matches you can see that he almost always stands near the baseline but it's impossible to do so in this game.

thanks a lot & sorry for my bad English
Last edited by iLoveRF on 31 Jul 2012, 17:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unrealistic parts of this game!

Postby BallBasher » 31 Jul 2012, 15:23

Yeah there really needs to be a slice skill or something in this game. The standard slice shot (not short slice) is a useless stroke at the moment even with 100% in all groundstroke stat. Funny thing is that Steffi Graf is in this game and yet you can't emulate her style of play. If you try to just keep the ball low with your slice backhand, frustrate your opponent and wait for a forehand to put away it doesn't work, the CPU just smacks your slices for winners. The handicap for higher topspin players on the slice doesn't make any sense either. Justine Henin had a great slice backhand and she's got a topspin level of 100% in this game.

A slice skill would give us a bit more variety when designing characters as well. Feliciano Lopez has a fantastic slice backhand and yet an utterly terrible topspin one-hander but there is no way of making a character like this in TE 2011, it's a sorely missing feature. The way I would do it is have one slice skill ranked between 0% and 100% as with all the other skills. As this skill increases, the user's slice, if cleanly struck, i.e not hit on the run behind the baseline, becomes increasingly difficult for the opponent to attack. Maybe at 100% it could lower the power and accuracy of an incoming acceleration by 10%.

Or if this is too much of a pain for Manutoo to code, since he would have to edit the whole player database again, he could grant the same bonus to players with the volleyer or varied style. Or he could make use of the talent system from TEM that is hidden in TE 2011 to allow us to put points in slice mastery and get a similar effect.

Sorry for the ramble.
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Re: Unrealistic parts of this game!

Postby manutoo » 01 Aug 2012, 05:30

iLoveRF,
1) you can do a short slice ; check at the end of the game doc on your computer. But the CPU short slice gives usually a ball easy to attack, if you step in quick enough.

2) you can stand closer of the baseline, just it'll prevent you to do acceleration on the return, but you should still be able to do decent B1 return

BallBasher,
slice already lowers the maximum speed of the attack of your opponent, by giving a lower ball ; it's most effective on surface whose bounce isn't too high. It also gives your player more forward inertia if you accelerate a sliced ball, thus putting you in a more risky situation if your opponent accelerates back on your acceleration.

Slice is a very easy strike (the easiest one in tennis actually), and being a master in slice just requires a talent star (or maybe 2), not a full skill bar, there's no real in between.
But for now, it just bounds to the inverse of the topspin skill, so it gives a better gameplay balance.
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Re: Unrealistic parts of this game!

Postby iLoveRF » 01 Aug 2012, 07:26

Thanks for the reply manutoo :D
I checked the doc and I found this:
"to do a short slice : press B1+up, release up, release B1, then press B2"
how can I pull off a shot like this in the middle of a rally? I mean it's too difficult to be useful in the game, and why is this a secret shot? I mean when the CPU use it why don't we?
I know I can hit regular shot but by doing that it's like I'm giving the point to my opponent so it doesn't really solve anything; It's not only about his serves, I have to go far back when he hits forehand (I don't know how he does it but his forehands are really deep and high, maybe it's also a CPU exclusive). I searched about this issue on this forum and all the players saying that "you have to stay back". I've played too many games in the last couple of days and it just frustrates me more and more :(
The way CPU plays sounds like cheating to me and I'm not playing on a very high level (Pro 5), I like to be challenged and I don't mind losing at all but now I don't see there's a way that I can improve my game. I think the problem is that the game focuses too much about running and guessing your opponent's next shot.
It should focus on which type of shot you choose and how well you can pull that off. When I hit a great shot I should be rewarded; in this game it's relatively easy to hit a great shot and it won't reward you because of that. so you can see the videos of this game on YouTube when players having a ridiculously long rally while in real tennis every one of those shots is a winner. This game would be awesome if it only makes it harder for us to hit a good shot but instead rewarded you well for hitting that shot. Now the game is about how much you can endure in a long rally to win a match but Tennis is about how well you can hit the ball, how you can mix up your game and manoeuvre your opponent.
I think I should wait for an update or new edition cause now it's not playable for me, it's sad because at first I thought this was the tennis game I have always dreamed of.

Again sorry for my poor English and thank you for reading this!
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Re: Unrealistic parts of this game!

Postby The Potro » 01 Aug 2012, 23:45

iLoveRF wrote:1. When I'm playing as Federer against Nadal ,he uses backhand slices very often.the problem is that his slices are short and low which is difficult to handle
i also play as federer vs rafa. i have never problem with his short slices. you must learn how to attack them.

iLoveRF wrote:2. When I'm returning Nadal's service, i have to stay far behind the baseline (sometimes the player is outside of my view!) to be in the "Safe Zone" or at least not in the "Danger zone", and it really frustrates me when Nadal hit a drop shot right away while I'm miles away from the baseline. If you watch Federer's matches you can see that he almost always stands near the baseline but it's impossible to do so in this game.
you must learn to "read" the serve and have better response time to return them. try to lower rafas service power or higher your speed.

the only problem i have when playing classic rafa vs roger match is that rafa plays to much to my forehand even though my forehand has higher skills than my backhand. in real life, he plays basically only to federers backhand, cause of this, i cannot get real match picture. ai has no intelligence.
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Re: Unrealistic parts of this game!

Postby manutoo » 02 Aug 2012, 04:56

iLoveRF,
when the CPU does a short slice, it's not a short slice : it's a poor normal slice that ends to be short ; and it's the kind of ball you should manage to attack to take advantage in the rally.

With a bit of practice, it's not too hard to do the short slice strike, and if like me you set up your short strike on a separate button, it becomes quite easy.

Nadal's FHs push you far from the baseline because of the topspin.

If you want to be more rewarded for your great shot (and more punished for your misplacement), try to set your control mode to Elite instead of Simulation, and lower the CPU level to Junior-10 (coz it'll get much harder).

Finally, check this video to see how to beat Nadal, Federer's style : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRRIClnM4_4 .
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Re: Unrealistic parts of this game!

Postby iLoveRF » 02 Aug 2012, 11:53

OK, this video is exactly what I needed to show you what I'm talking about.

1. In the video your opponent did a short slice against you and you lost the point because you didn't reach it at all.(at least I'm not alone on this matter!) I think the problem is that footwork is not fluid at all.

2. You said this is Federer's style, well apparently you don't watch tennis regularly. Just because of some occasional net approaches you can't call it Federer's style.That's more like Djokovic's style or even Nadal's style where he stands miles behind the baseline during a whole set.
Just right next to this video you can find some of Federer Nadal matches where you can see Federer's style. Look at where he is standing when returning Nadal's service or even in the rallies. He's on the baseline most of the time and he is playing against Nadal so your argument that "Nadal's FHs push you far from the baseline because of the topspin" is not valid.

3. The return system is completely flawed in this game and you can notice this when you watch a couple of Federer's returns carefully. He's standing on the baseline or very close to it. When he's returning he doesn't take a lot of steps to his left or right to reach the ball. He takes one step to his side (most of the time he doesn't and you can see that his feet are glued to the ground) and stretches his body to reach the ball while his feet are not moving. but there's no way you can do this in the game because you have to go far behind the baseline and then run left or right to reach the ball.

4. In the game you can't hit the ball when it's relatively high but you can see that real players can do so that's because Federer can play on the baseline. If you hit a very deep stroke you're taking some risk but that's not the case in this game where Nadal can hit very deep shots any time he wants. In the videos you can see that his forehands are not that deep for the most part and if he hits a deep one it'll probably be an immediate winner (he's rewarded well but he has taken some risk).

Maybe I'm asking too much but it's cause I think that this game has done a lot of things right and has the potential to become the perfect tennis game.
Thanks
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Re: Unrealistic parts of this game!

Postby manutoo » 02 Aug 2012, 13:43

iLoveRF,

1. Are you talking about the strike at 5'01 ? Coz it's a dropshot, and I'm standing almost 5 meters from the baseline... I almost never get caught by the short slices of the CPU coz I try to always step in a bit after a good acceleration ; it can happen though if I'm not focused enough.

2. I did 25 net approaches in that set, with a 6/2 score. Is that what you call "some occasional net approaches" ? Actually, it's more than Fed did in most of his sets on clay ; I should have made more winners from the baseline to be closer of its style. This recording was done with v1.0b, and since v1.0c it is actually easier to hit such winners.
I play not aggressively enough in the 1st few games and get stuck in long tiring rallies, having globally a tough time, and then get my game together to play a lot more aggressively toward the net to finally dominate Nadal to win the set. Surely looks like Fed on clay to me... :thinking:
I don't know what tennis you "watch", but here for example : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3TktrWPMls . Fed stands often about 3 or 4 meters after the baseline in his standard position, and come near of the baseline during his attack phases, or closer of the baseline when Nadal plays a bit shorter.
And there's 1 difference between my player & Fed : Fed is able to take the ball early, mine not. Only the Counter has such ability and I had a puncher. Other play styles can't do that efficiently for gameplay balance.

3. I stand far from the baseline on return coz it's easier for me, but some other players with better reflexes can stay closer of the baseline without much problem (and at Pro-5, it's easy enough to do that) ; if you can't, don't blame the game coz you don't have Fed's reflexes. Or you'd like an automatic return system where you have nothing to do ?
Also, still from the few Fed's returns on the video I linked above, you can see he's standing about 2 meters from the baseline and he's doing some steps to catch the ball.

4. It's not about high ball, it's about raising ball ; and average ball length is slightly higher in TE than in real life, it helps to give a smoother gameplay (ie: less based on the luck to get a longer than usual ball). I may tune that for future editions though (ie: not TE2011), but it's quite a sensible area.

Anyway, maybe you should try to lower Nadal's topspin skill, it may give you a more enjoyable experience, letting you play closer of the baseline.
Or maybe you can try to set your play style to Counter, even if it doesn't really match Fed's style.
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Re: Unrealistic parts of this game!

Postby BallBasher » 02 Aug 2012, 16:39

@iloveRF: You're right that Federer stands fairly close to the baseline, even on clay. However, I think what Manutoo means with "forcing you behind the baseline with his FH" is that it is more difficult to stand on the baseline and dictate on clay when Nadal's heavy spin is leaping up at you. Indeed, Federer makes a lot of errors on clay trying to play this way, particularly off the backhand and it's one of the reasons he almost always loses to him on that surface. The only guy who can play like this is Djokovic, who in my opinion is not a Power Baseliner (as in game) but a Counter and he most certainly doesn't play "miles behind the baseline" against Nadal here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZBHDyHg ... re=related

Djokovic has a far more solid backhand than Federer and makes less errors than him playing this way. This is emulated in the game pretty well with the Danger Zone and the differences between the Counter style and Varied style (and between one-handed and two-handed BHs). Maybe you are right that the depth of rally shots, particularly from the CPU is a little too much, but its not too bad. As for the returning, with a bit of practice it becomes relatively easy to return against the AI. You're not going to be able to launch massive return winners against them without a high counter skill or the counter style but standing close to the baseline and returning balls relatively deep is not that hard. I'm playing on incredible-1 with a 1HBH puncher btw.

@ Manutoo: I understand your reasoning behind the slice not having a skill. A talent would be nice though just to allow us to build those Graf or Lopez style players. One other thing since this a suggestion thread of sorts, could you improve the mid-range topspin levels a little bit? I kind of feel that the either hitting very flat (between 0 and 20%) or very heavy (between 80 and 100%) is vastly superior to the mid-range. If i play with say, 50% topspin, I don't have the kick that the heavier guys get, but I can't hit massively hard accelerations either like the flat hitters. Maybe we could get a bonus to our short accelerations or our precision or something. It just feels a little imbalanced atm. I noticed with the CPU as well, CPU players with between 30 to 70% topspin are far easier to beat than ultra flat or ultra heavy players.
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Re: Unrealistic parts of this game!

Postby Brecht » 02 Aug 2012, 21:03

manutoo wrote: and if like me you set up your short strike on a separate button, it becomes quite easy.



Hello Manu,

do you mean you assign the short strike (B1+up) with one single button, or the short slice? I guess it's the former, but the latter would be a great idea ...
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Re: Unrealistic parts of this game!

Postby manutoo » 03 Aug 2012, 05:10

Brecht,
it's assigning the short strike to a button ; so you can simply press the Short Slice Button then B2, without worrying about the order to release B1 & Up .

BallBasher,
Nadal is annihilated on the video you posted..! ;) He's always late on the ball, doesn't do clean shots, struggle to get any decent ball length & put enough spin in the ball.
On the rare points where he gets his game together, you can see he pushes Djoko very far from the baseline.

The topspin skill already improves the short acceleration efficiency ; it's quite noticeable when you skip from 0% to 25-30%, and then to 100% ; I didn't test in the middle to check if the gain was also noticeable. It also slightly improves the short strikes (by a lil tiny bit ;) ).
I'll try to test more the 50% topspin, to see how it goes.
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Re: Unrealistic parts of this game!

Postby iLoveRF » 03 Aug 2012, 20:41

@ manutoo
1. well then I suppose that my footwork isn't good at all because I'm bothered with these short slices and drop shots when I'm pushed behind the baseline and that's one of the reasons that I'm not happy I can't play closer to the baseline.

2&3. You're right, it was a lot and I really shouldn't have said "occasional" . All I'm trying to say is that one of his most noticeable characteristics is how he plays closer to the baseline compared to the most of other players and I honestly don't see that in the game. All the things I've mentioned in my previous posts was about playing on hard courts. Anyway I watched that video and although I haven't played a lot on clay in this game, I can tell you that he stands noticeably closer to baseline than where he does in the game.
I never thought I would've a hard time to convince you that Federer plays closer to the baseline (specificabally in recent years) than what's possible in the game. but if you compare these videos, it may change your mind: (I had to remove parts of the links cuz it didn't allow me!)
this is a Federer vs Nadal match on hard court recorded from the game : "youtube"/watch?v=MD2-Bq6V0uI
& this is a real one on hard court: "youtube"/watch?v=YLq9j8VWei4
You said "if you can't, don't blame the game coz you don't have Fed's reflexes", WOW!!! I did not expect you to make such a statement. so if I want to return on the baseline I need to have Federer's reflexes but the game is fine. I didn't know that in this game if I want to play like my favourite player I must have his actual qualities. but you know this is a poor excuse just to ignore the fact that "right now it's not practical to do so in the game". suppose I have Fed's reflexes and I'm standing on the baseline. Does the game let me to stretch my body to reach the ball or should I have to run all the way?! and if I do reach the ball just in time how is it possible to return successfully while I'm totally in "Danger zone"?
If there's a video of the game that I can see how it's possible, please don't hesitate to share it.

4. Thanks, hopefully it'll help my game a bit.
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Re: Unrealistic parts of this game!

Postby manutoo » 04 Aug 2012, 04:45

iLoveRF
2. The match I showed you was on clay & you link videos on hard court... :roll: and if you re-read my #2 you'll see I outlined why I wasn't more close of the baseline and I gave you a solution if you think it's the most important thing to be Fed.

3. This is why TE is mainly a simulation and not an arcade game, you actually need some skills to win... ;) If it's too hard for you, u still can lower the CPU level, which will also lower his quality of serve and it'll be easier to return from the baseline. You'll still be able to do decent return using B1 if you stand in the Danger Zone but center your ball ; it'll be almost impossible to do acceleration, though. There's no body stretch animation and it'd not be possible to handle one in a satisfying way anyway, as the game gives you freedom of placement. But the final & important result, ie: the position of the racket head, is more or less the same, so you can return the ball.
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Re: Unrealistic parts of this game!

Postby iLoveRF » 05 Aug 2012, 04:56

@manutoo
2. I don't know why you're confused because I've said in my last post that "All the things I've mentioned in my previous posts was about playing on hard courts". I don't know where you got the idea that I'm talking about clay but I think I should have mentioned it in my first post to avoid any confusion. I've tried all the things you've said before but your solution simply doesn't solve the problem and if you think it's my lack of skills that I can't play that way I think there should be at least one player who can do this otherwise there's something missing from the game. so here I ask you again "If there's a video of the game that I can see how it's possible, please don't hesitate to share it."
I think the videos I've linked before clearly shows what I'm talking about but apparently you're just too satisfied with the game that you can't (or don't want to) see the difference.

3. Almost every game needs its own set of skills to play (even an arcade one) but in my book a game can be called simulation only when it needs the player to have a good understanding of how the simulated thing works in reality and somehow makes you to use that while playing the game.
Actually I want a simulation and if I wanted an arcade tennis game I was playing Virtua Tennis 4 right now instead of arguing with you on this forum. I played [Censored1] and tried the demo of [Censored2]. I've played [Censored1] a lot and I really liked its gameplay. I find its gameplay the most realistic one because it has a very important element of real tennis which is "Timing". If you want to hit cross court shot you must hit it earlier than when you want to hit it down the line. It's harder to hit good shots but it's more satisfying when you do it right and it gives you the immersion of playing real tennis because it requires you to have a good understanding of real tennis (which is why it can be called a simulation). If you can't reach the ball early enough you can't magically hit it wherever you want, you probably have to go with a down the line. Despite its good gameplay this game lacks in other aspects like good sounds, animations and the overall atmosphere of the game and a career mode (things that are really good in Tennis Elbow!). so I got bored of it after completing the world tour for a couple times on its highest difficulty.
But timing isn't important to this game when your hitting the ball, all you had to do is holding down the button you want and give it a proper amount of direction. It has switched it's focus to the movement and footwork. As long as you're in safe zone you can do whatever you like with the ball. It has eliminated a lot of things that has an effect on your stroke. I shouldn't be able to hit a perfect drop shot regardless of the speed or direction or spin of the ball even when I'm in the safe zone.
I'm not saying that footwork isn't important in tennis but it's not all. It's true that "you had to be in right position if you want to make a good shot" and this game has done this well but it should not have eliminated the other elements.
About adding stretch ability to players, I know it could be hard to implement such a thing in the game but that's what players do on return so they can return the fast serves that are a bit out of their reach zone. It'll make the game more realistic and more playable on return (instead of going far back or plain guessing).

Although I expected you to accept criticism of the game more easily, I really appreciate that you took your time to answer me.
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Re: Unrealistic parts of this game!

Postby manutoo » 06 Aug 2012, 05:06

2. I already said it, but I guess one time was not enough : "average ball length is slightly higher in TE than in real life" ; so even if you took the real Federer and put him against Nadal of TE, the real Federer would have to stand a bit more far than usually from the baseline

3. I don't know what is your level in real tennis, but I never ever missed an aiming DTL coz I hit the ball too early or a crossed shot coz I hit it too late ; I never ever heard any of my tennis parters complain about such thing, and I never ever heard any pro giving such explanation for their bad day of tennis ; only someone who played only a few times at tennis has trouble with his timing to hit the ball at the right time ; tennis is about geometry, body positioning, body coordination & synchronization, not about timing to hit the ball. To hit the ball well, you have to position yourself correctly, the timing comes then naturally, ie : it's a consequence, not a cause. After, you can find that aiming left/right based on early/late strike is an interesting gameplay mechanism & quite enjoyable, but it has very little to do with what real players actually do & feel on a real court. And yes, when you're late on the ball, you still can send it wherever you want, the only thing it takes is a wrist wipe, it's harder but far from impossible.
Thus said, you forgot there's a timing in TE as well : the left/right aiming is time based ; although it's not based on a realist mechanism, the result (at least for me) gives something quite realist : I can aim near the lines most of times when I'm relaxed, but as soon as I'm stressed, I can't do that anymore, which is very close of the feelings I have on a real court.

I think you don't understand what the Danger Zone is : it's the place where the ball is too fast & too hard to control (coz of height & vertical direction) ; so when you're outside, the ball is easy enough to hit, thus the successful drop shot ; if you do a lot of dropshots, you may notice that the Danger Zone is for the normal strikes, and sometimes the ball will be still a bit too fast outside of it, so if you do a dropshot, you'll lose a bit the control of the ball, and it'll get longer than necessary. So even if it's not obvious at 1st glance, a lot parameters are considered when hitting the dropshot.
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