Counter style...

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Re: Counter style...

Postby S.Williamz » 12 Jul 2011, 16:21

You can't hit a good normal speed acceleration either from a big spinny shot, so there's no disadvantage of any kind for counter. Plus I use accelerations as carefully as I can with mixing in some other type of shots though usually when I hit a non acceleration shot the counter steps in and starts dominating so it isn't the best tactic. And when I run out of my few precious accelerations the counter can pretty much play inside the baseline and push you around as long as they please. Or they might hit a dropshot, or come to the net because they can have lots of points in those. Whereas the power baseliner might as well give up at that point.

So the power baseliner pretty much can only hope to finish the point while still having accelerations, which is way too hard considering all the options the counter has at their disposal.
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Re: Counter style...

Postby Mr.Schmith » 12 Jul 2011, 16:44

when I'm counter I have 25 stamina because I want around two angle accelerations, and when I'm puncher I have 75 stamina that's 65 points and punchers or baseliners usually don't have 100 counter so you actually don't gain points being counter, and if you have 100 stamina or a bit less then you can hardly get any advantage from those few points. And if there are spin shots being hit against the baseliner with 0 spin then they can hit through it and counters can't. I've played counter for a year on every surfaces and I've said what I have experienced I'm not going to comment any further on this
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Re: Counter style...

Postby S.Williamz » 12 Jul 2011, 17:14

Mr.Schmith wrote:when I'm counter I have 25 stamina because I want around two angle accelerations


What are those? As far as I know stamina does nothing for a counter so you might as well have 0. Someone correct me if I'm wrong

Mr.Schmith wrote:when I'm puncher I have 75 stamina


Yeah but you lose a vital acceleration, which are as I've said before very limited to begin with(except for counters, who have never ending accelerations)

Mr.Schmith wrote:baseliners usually don't have 100 counter so you actually don't gain points being counter


It's true that counters need a lot of counter to make their shots stronger, and punchers and baseliners usually don't need counter. But stamina takes more points than counter so there's still extra points for counters. In any case the point bonus is not the root problem but the effectiveness of the counter style in action(mainly the unlimited accelerations)

Mr.Schmith wrote:And if there are spin shots being hit against the baseliner with 0 spin then they can hit through it and counters can't.


This is simply wrong, a deep spin shot and you can't do anything with it no matter how hard your shots are. Plus against defending spin players you don't really have to worry about being attacked too much so there are other options to beat them but counters sometimes are more aggressive than punchers and baseliners and end up with more winners
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Re: Counter style...

Postby Mr.Schmith » 12 Jul 2011, 18:04

you need stamina for angle accelerations / and accel volleys. So the point difference isn't a lot. And let me ask you if you can't hit through spin as baseliners then how did people go 5 sets against voja on clay when they simply have nothing to do besides defenders even hit harder than counters if there isn't some kind of power coming at you like a serve. This whole topic is pretty much a joke. Manutoo made it so you have to take the ball earlier to make it effecient. I think it's great that there is a style that gives viration and changing that is just rediculous. The difference isn't enough to even complain about, I lost my final at wimbledon vs a baseliner so I simply do not see the problem when counters can even lose on their home advantage
Last edited by Mr.Schmith on 12 Jul 2011, 18:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Counter style...

Postby Serena Williams » 12 Jul 2011, 18:08

well im a PB and i have 100 counter even tho idk why xD
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Re: Counter style...

Postby Mohamed » 12 Jul 2011, 18:14

Well counter helps PB and punchers too. But i have a question about the fh and bh power on counter style, should it be normal like on other styles? or you are able to reduce it since you can use the opponent's power shots. I'm too lazy to try that so if someone could answer :thinking:
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Re: Counter style...

Postby Mr.Schmith » 12 Jul 2011, 18:18

Mohamed wrote:Well counter helps PB and punchers too. But i have a question about the fh and bh power on counter style, should it be normal like on other styles? or you are able to reduce it since you can use the opponent's power shots. I'm too lazy to try that so if someone could answer :thinking:

like vikky said yeah maybe the returns are pretty insane because of the ammount of speed you can hit of that but this is pretty much the only time where it is actually harder than a baseliner
Last edited by Mr.Schmith on 12 Jul 2011, 18:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Counter style...

Postby Serena Williams » 12 Jul 2011, 18:18

Mohamed wrote:Well counter helps PB and punchers too. But i have a question about the fh and bh power on counter style, should it be normal like on other styles? or you are able to reduce it since you can use the opponent's power shots. I'm too lazy to try that so if someone could answer :thinking:

well i think if ur counter with 100 power on both wings then ur normal shots are 6-7 km slower then lets say a PB
counter is a style that generates the oponents power so i think thats why Le cheato hits 155 km returns cuz he generates the power of the serve which is 200 or more
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Re: Counter style...

Postby S.Williamz » 12 Jul 2011, 18:27

I admit that the point difference is not as large as I thought at first, but it is still there as angle accelerations and acceleration volleys are shots that aren't the most important in the world and don't even need to be hit

But again the biggest issue are the unlimited accelerations, not the points. It is not a joke it is clear as a day that the puncher/baseliner shouldn't be so defenseless when they run out of accelerations. Again I don't see the point of being puncher/baseliner when in many conditions the counter is the more aggressive player overall
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Re: Counter style...

Postby Mohamed » 12 Jul 2011, 18:33

S.Williamz wrote:I admit that the point difference is not as large as I thought at first, but it is still there as angle accelerations and acceleration volleys are shots that aren't the most important in the world and don't even need to be hit

Try to play a defender on clay using counter style(Best example voja). you will see that if you don't have accelerations of short angles and volleys you will never be able to bother him.
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Re: Counter style...

Postby Mr.Schmith » 12 Jul 2011, 18:38

I take myself as one of the best at defending on tour and I rarely meet bp who run out of accels, when I played vikky on clay in 5 sets I was defending more than he was and he was pretty much making me run the whole match. He didn't run out of accels more than a handfull times and the same thing with zeka on grass. Also as counter when you're in a defensive position you have a hard time getting back to the baseline and rally against 150km shots when you're hitting 143 yourself. I just don't see people run out of accelerations enough to it being an actual problem. Yes counter will never run out like that but their shots are weaker. I don't know about every level of bp but I also see a lot of defensive bp who don't seek the offense and just play like defenders, where the best level can hit winners before time runs up
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Re: Counter style...

Postby Serena Williams » 12 Jul 2011, 18:41

Mr.Schmith wrote:I take myself as one of the best at defending on tour and I rarely meet bp who run out of accels, when I played vikky on clay in 5 sets I was defending more than he was and he was pretty much making me run the whole match. He didn't run out of accels more than a handfull times and the same thing with zeka on grass. Also as counter when you're in a defensive position you have a hard time getting back to the baseline and rally against 150km shots when you're hitting 143 yourself. I just don't see people run out of accelerations enough to it being an actual problem. Yes counter will never run out like that but their shots are weaker. I don't know about every level of bp but I also see a lot of defensive bp who don't seek the offense and just play like defenders, where the best level can hit winners before time runs up

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Re: Counter style...

Postby Mohamed » 12 Jul 2011, 18:48

True PB players don't get out of accelerations (just rarely) cuz they will make a winner/error before the end of these 7 accels. So counters' best adventages are returns i guess.
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Re: Counter style...

Postby S.Williamz » 12 Jul 2011, 18:49

Mohamed wrote:Try to play a defender on clay using counter style(Best example voja). you will see that if you don't have accelerations of short angles and volleys you will never be able to bother him.


I don't really find anything a good tactic against him so...lol I don't use those shots much nor find them a very good tactic but if for you then good for you lol

Anyway...I stand behind what I have written I don't have to repeat it all again. lol I have enough experience of this and imo would be a good balancing. Resistancefrom the ones who's game it would affect is natural :D
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Re: Counter style...

Postby S.Williamz » 12 Jul 2011, 18:53

Mohamed wrote:True PB players don't get out of accelerations (just rarely) cuz they will make a winner/error before the end of these 7 accels. So counters' best adventages are returns i guess.


I guess I just suck then
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