Mana Games

[Thomas]

Low balls's issue + on-the-run acceleration + DTL shots

1) Low ball issues
Can you watch this point from Wawrinka: youtu.be/tV27ZFjYksk?t=296
In TE4, characters cannot go down on their knee to hit a powerful shot like real life players do.
Players' models seem like dislocated puppets when they try to hit a low ball like that. It makes the game weird, makes you feel powerless, your shot will fly high without speed with a weird anim going backward, as if the guy lost its balance and power.

I wonder why this does happen as this is not a difficult position to cope with in tennis. It was also possible in TE3. That's one of the biggest issue of the game in my opinion.

2) DTL shots lack precision and power: it's almost impossible to paint a line DTL with speed on the run.
It's a high risk shot in real life but here, in the rare instances a DTL manages to successfully cross the net, it will often land 3 meters inside the court or out. Never near/on the line whatever you stats are in precision, consistency or power.
I think 70% of rallies are crossed in real life but perhaps 95% in TE4 because of that issue: it's a high risk, low reward shot, it's not fun, not powerful, not precise. So nobody dares hit DTL.
It restrains options and creativity: you go less to the net for instance as your DTL approach generally sux. Thus we experience a low variety in rallies... or AI coming to the net in bad conditions as I mentioned in other threads.

3) Absence of the on-the-run 105 mph acceleration when players go all-in in a rally: we can see Alcaraz Thiem and a lot of players doing it. It's a shot they make when they bet everything on it. I think it could become an Ultra acceleration hidden button that one can only hit with a tap, or a double tap on accel button. Would not work when you're static.

4) Bonus: players stats normalization + "all-court" style players rushing the net after a bad DTL (which is potentially linked to my point n2: all court AI players think they hit a good DTL approach shot, so they rush the net... but it's not the case, you can very easily send back their approach shots, as they're slow and 3meters inside the court.

[manutoo]

Hello,

1) I just did a test against the Ball Thrower, hitting 130km/h acceleration off low balls on the backhand with 83% power ; it's totally possible to do that, but you need to be perfectly positioned on left/right

2) "nobody dares hit DTL" ? Are you playing online ? I cannot find your IP in the online log. From the online matches I watched, it didn't feel like the DTL was very seldom used.
And same as all other strikes, you have to be perfectly positioned to hit it well ; so it's very hard to hit any running strike, either crossed or DTL.
What is your Top spin skill ? Maybe 15% or less of top spin could lead to an issue with net clearance when hitting DTL...

3) People already complain the game is too fast ; it's possible to hit very strong accelerations when the ball is at your shoulder height : you can reach 180+km/h (110+mp/h) with 100% FH power.

4) I answered you twice on the other topic...

[Thomas]

Hi Manu! Can you record a few TE4 videos where we can see this exact shot on the line? youtu.be/Wop-CfknUIc?t=246. Not in arcade, autopos max of course. Kuerten, Wawrinka, Gasquet and even Federer can hit that every match so if you think it's possible to make it in TE4, I'd like you to show us how you execute it. Personally I've never seen such shots in TE4. And even less on the run!

[manutoo]

Here the parameters to get a return very similar to Ferrero's one, and I can do a nearly perfect 128+km/h acceleration on the BH after a couple of steps more than 30% of the time with Simulation controls & Average autopos. Someone with more training than I should reach easily 50% of the time.

Against the Incredible CPU, you might get returns much faster than 110km/h, though.

[Thomas]

Maybe my issue comes from the fact there are around 8 variables that can potentially affect a shot's quality (at least).
Tier1: Focus, Consistency, Positioning, Precision
Tier2: Stress (through cold blood), Self esteem, Concentration (& Constancy, Stamina (& short term form),
Not even sure about tiers here. And there are also Speed & Muscle tone which can impact things or even Reflexes...

So many variables to tune to get good shots. In TE3, it was mostly Precision & Consistency. Perhaps it's a bit over the top now?

My opinion:
1) Positioning & Consistency might be redundant: it's just the ability to hit shots from difficult positions like DTL, high balls... (could be fused and renamed).
2) Self Esteem is a bit redundant with the "Hit on the Rise" talent: if you can't hit on the rise how could you be confident to hit on baseline? Unless the player is dumb: confident to hit early despite a lack of skills to do it... hmmm ok.
3) Focus & Precision are a bit similar: make you charge less to have a precise shot. I would just eliminate "Focus" here.
4) Concentration & Constancy could be revamped into something clearer: 2 stats just for AI, match constancy (100% = no up & down of level, 0% = can suddenly play like a low level player) & season constancy. Guys like Safin would be bad in these 2 stats and Murray great.

And I'm not even talking here about all these stuff around stamina: short term form, long term form, match energy, max energy... it's not easy to grasp with with all these formulas related to speed, where we have to divide by 2 with muscle tone. I'm not a mathematician, I'm just a tennis fan willing to play good tennis.
What's the goal pursued with all these stamina calculations? Stamina is a very simple concept! Form of the day + Stamina would just be enough here.

In conclusion I would simplify things so that a shot precision just rely on Precision, Stamina (impacted by form of the day) and Ability to hit from hard position (Consistency): you introduce Match/Season Constancy + Stress/Coldblood for AI. The rest is just unnecessary and obscure concepts.
Removing or streamlining those things would make the game clearer, the character sheet clearer and put the focus on more important stats like Tactics. In short: beauty in simplicity.

[Thomas]

2) Self Esteem is a bit redundant with the "Hit on the Rise" talent: if you can't hit on the rise how could you be confident to hit on baseline? Unless the player is dumb: confident to hit early despite a lack of skills to do it... hmmm ok.

I meant 'confident to play on baseline' here.

[manutoo]

0) As you reference many skills not for human players in TE4, does it mean you play with the TEM2 mode activated ? If so, then you should deactivate it if you want something more simple
In the same matter, there's no Stress for humans in TE4 (without the TEM2 mode)

1) Positioning determines how well the CPU positions himself, it's not like the Consistency ; as a Human, it'll only help to get a tiny bit less tired from running

2) Self-esteem allows the CPU to aim more for the lines, and does nothing for the Human player. Most players cannot hit the ball on the rise with a normal strike.

3) In TE2013, it was not possible (or at least very complicated) to make a slow player as efficient as a faster player ; the Focus skill solves this problem

5) Having only 2 levels of Form in TE2013 didn't work well ; in TE4, I think it gives a more realistic approach. Players' energy & breath go up & down during a match, it cannot be realistically simulated by only 1 stamina bar.

6) Having many things in relation to the Speed & the Muscle Tone skills avoid having the Speed skill being the most important one of all, by far, like in TE2013 ; in TE4, it can make a lot of sense to lower your speed skill to favor over aspects

[Mahmut]

I agree about the second point and in general about running shots. It is almost impossible to hit with precision DTL shot on the run. It shouldn't impossible to hit DTL with precision and some power on the run.
Many players are doing in RL without having to be perfectly positioned to ball. I think mainly precision and the speed of the shot should get boosted on DTL running shots.

Or idk if possible but would be awesome to have some risk based acceleration shots on the run. Better and easier way would be to have some talent like i said in other topic. But regardless of this i believe their precision should get boosted.