Game Balance Problems with Top Spin, Drop Shot, Lob, etc...

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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0d

Postby Mr.Schmith » 16 Feb 2010, 00:58

S.Williamz wrote:Also funny is that spin players often are the more dominant and aggressive side lol. The first moments of a rally go with the power baseliner hitting some hard shots and the spin player defending but the power baseliner is having very hard time aiming at the lines because of the spin, and don't want to take huge risks so they hit kinda safe accelerations. Then they run out of accelerations and the spin player starts using theirs and dominate the rally, however the opponent doesn't have spin so they can't defend equally and are hit through. Or maybe the power player mixes up accelerations and normal shots, however here is the same case, the spin player uses acceleration when the opponent hits normal shots and again they dominate. Because the opponent doesn't have defensive spin the spin player can hit winners easier than the power players. Imo this is so upside down.

i hear what ur saying and u are right tho i use mine right when i get my change and breaks free but still its true tho i dont know what ur plan is to do aswell cause changing the speed of top spin balls aint going to work without another thing being changed. My suggestion i think this might work but we must be able to break free and u can still put presure i dont know if i could test it with u anyhow with manutoo but another problem is u can get speed on ur balls fx if i hit the line away from u and the person has to run far they can still hit above 140kmh and if its the last stretch that wouldnt be possible in real life it would either be short slow or slow and jump high into the air and stop middle of the court so consistency is the problem or one of them and if u want to fix this problem u might aswell just make a tennis elbow 2010
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0d

Postby Mr.Schmith » 16 Feb 2010, 18:13

okey i think i found the solution we can all use first of all serena i need to know ur max speed with forehand using alt and backhand with 0 spin and 20 spin but i think its around 130 near that maybe if it could be 140 for the none spin users cause u can take the ball early control spin better i used it alot against RS today he was defender first he had 100 spin it was horrible i still won tho but after he used 40 thats around what i use then i won 6-2 it was hard but i had to use alt alot and take my oppotunities and worked tho i had to go to the net sometimes and im sorry if thats what u have to do but the spin button aint needed to change cause it aint too fast i mean i could take almost all of his balls tho i made alot of errors in start but i got into it and controlled it thats my suggestion using alt and net abit with puncher skill or counter i dont know alot about it but i think it works abit and if alt could be a bit harder then it would give them alot of chances in a game.
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0d

Postby tati cornet » 16 Feb 2010, 22:57

Mr.Schmith wrote:omg u are so pathetic have u seen who is complaining? baseliners + ask tati cornet he knows how to play on clay he can take ball early go to net and destroy u HE KNOWS HOW TO BUILD THE POINT UP WHICH IS NEEDED ON CLAY IVE HEARD IT BILIONS OF TIMES i can name bunch of players who knows how to do that instead of expecting u can hit winners all the time so stop complaining. should i complain about freaking spin on other surfaces? cause that is unrealistic aswell then besides having 0 spin hiting that flat as u guys do shouldnt be possible going long line when somebody hits a slice and i have complained alot and made my topic but i didnt get any fix i just played with what the problem was and made it work and here i am now with the 2h bh winning tourneys so reconsider what u have posted before u try ruining someones game


you are partly right, not not totally.
clay is my favourite surface with newline, i like slow surfaces as i have the feeling to be able to hit winners and to defend correctly. but i don't know what to think about the spin in fact. as we have mainly you, voja and tog, we can compare.
-voja can confirm what i am gonna say: every set we play in a 64/75/76 one, all surfaces considered. so even on clay, i really bother him. the last time we played, he even told me i can beat anyone with such an agressive game (he won 76, but it's true my grounstrokes and net game were almost perfect).
-with you schmith, it seems different. you almost have the same game than voja as you use drop shots too now, but idk, it seemed slightly harder to defend in costa (and it's not that much on hard). but it's mainly harder to hit winner sof course, with your spin it's logical. i thin kthe same than serena on this point, high spin is really too much, your player is disappearing from the screen when he wants to return it correctly (after that it's easy for the opponent to hit a drop shot). it's tru it's possible to control topspin player (remember the first set between you and me in costa), but in a way, it's so hard to hold the same level a full match. you saw the difference, after 63 23, your errors disappeared (it's easier for spiners to reduce the errors) and mine increased a little, while my net game was slightly less efficient. so it's the nadal effect maybe, we are tired after a while or idk.
-concerning tog, our last meeting confirmed what happens everytime. i start really slowly (or he starts brilliantly) and i wake up (or he plays with less quality) after the first set (60 64 76 in ao). idk, tog seems to be the more powerful of you three, that's probably why he needn't to use drop shots.
but one of the way to control your game is to push you to come to the net and pass you. unfortunately, the game doesn't allow to hit a short ball with really low rebound (when you hit a slice, it's impossible to hit a really short one) so, it's uselees or very risky.
you were talking about my net game, it's true i use it a lot on clay too, but it's also because i put 0 in counter on clay to increase my net presence and volley.

so idk, sometimes i feel really annoyed because it's impossible to hit a so high effect ball with such a power. the only way to have a chance to win the point is to hold the rally on every point, which is really bothering 80% of the players.
something as to be done, like to decrease the power or the effect of the spin, or maybe to help the flat hitters to hit some more winners against spiner. idk :p
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0d

Postby Mr.Schmith » 16 Feb 2010, 23:46

well i am probably not the strongest of us 3 when it comes to the matter of power but i use alot of types with attacking and on clay my drop shot is even better so i use it there then i have another attack that works extremly good and that helps alot and i know what u mean u cant take ball early with the spin button as a baseliner fx or whatever u are but u can with defender u should be able to do that but still less spin its rediculess its like its extremly safe both should but power people dosent have that so they have to run way behind the ball and thats pretty anoying if ur not good at working yourself into the court
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0d

Postby S.Williamz » 17 Feb 2010, 22:49

Dropshots need urgent tweaking...they are being exploited too much right now. They can be hit perfectly in too many situations, like in the middle of a quite heated rally. The worst exploit is hitting a dropshot right after serving, because the opponent is quite far back returning. The chances of winning the point are 75%+ for the dropshotter because it's so hard to get this dropshot back well. I usually lose most of my breakpoints to this tactic even when hitting a great return, it's really stupid. It's also possible to base your whole game on hitting mostly dropshots, and it works great. And that sucks.
Dropshots should only be easy to hit when your opponent hits a short and weaker shots more in the middle court, and they should be only hard to get back when you are really pushed on a far back defensive position.
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0d

Postby Jelena Jankovic » 17 Feb 2010, 22:55

I agree with S.Wiliamz for the drop shot... But I am very disappointed in the new version... This stupid counter changed the game a lot and now I can't find my old game... :sweat:
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0d

Postby S.Williamz » 17 Feb 2010, 23:13

JJ, the counter doesn't affect acceleration and there isn't any big difference to the previous version with the normal and topspin shots either.
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0d

Postby tati cornet » 18 Feb 2010, 01:57

i think the same.
as i ever said, drop shiot return and lob returns are totally stupid and are no tennis at all.
but the main problem is when you touch the drop shot, it's almost impossible to hit a winner. neither you put the ball out, nore you have to hit a safe slice or a slow ball in the middle of the court. i have absolutely no control when i arrive late on the ball and try to hit an acceleratin or a topspin shot. it's really frustrating.
concerning the ocunter, there is no difference in power with 0 or 100. but i still don't understand how serena (from macedonia) or jj can hit so hard. even when the winner is 100, you have sometimes the feeling to be unable to defend. i mean against serena in zagreb, there was absolutely no rallies, only aces and it was impossible to defend a little. kyuuji, blacky or ero are also hard hitters, but it's clearly possible to have long rallies with them. idk what the secret is, it's not only the baseliner style, so it's still a mystery :p
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0d

Postby Jelena Jankovic » 18 Feb 2010, 02:04

Haha.. xD It isn't a mystery.. xD :lol:
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0d

Postby Serena Williams » 18 Feb 2010, 02:11

tati cornet wrote:i think the same.
as i ever said, drop shiot return and lob returns are totally stupid and are no tennis at all.
but the main problem is when you touch the drop shot, it's almost impossible to hit a winner. neither you put the ball out, nore you have to hit a safe slice or a slow ball in the middle of the court. i have absolutely no control when i arrive late on the ball and try to hit an acceleratin or a topspin shot. it's really frustrating.
concerning the ocunter, there is no difference in power with 0 or 100. but i still don't understand how serena (from macedonia) or jj can hit so hard. even when the winner is 100, you have sometimes the feeling to be unable to defend. i mean against serena in zagreb, there was absolutely no rallies, only aces and it was impossible to defend a little. kyuuji, blacky or ero are also hard hitters, but it's clearly possible to have long rallies with them. idk what the secret is, it's not only the baseliner style, so it's still a mystery :p

idk why you think that i'm a hard hitter(tnx by the way for the compliment) and yes that match in zagreb had many aces and winners probably because we played on Indoor Hard maybe i can tell you how to hit hard,abt the serve well i guess i'm just talented xD
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0d

Postby Mr.Schmith » 18 Feb 2010, 15:48

i agree with drop shots they are hit perfectly and insane everytime with 100% and its hard for alot of people BUT ZEKA U USE THEM ASWELL XD tho to the lob aswell, lob return not realistic to get them back for a serve that good and presice they should be like middle of the court not further than that and about the hard hitters ive had alot of trouble with them aswell i cant get any thing going cause i dont get a chance atleast on IH and BG abit the same with del potro and nadal in USO semis and i think its great they have found a way to be "stronger" than the rest of us. PS if we change the drop shot tog will just be even harder to beat so think about it!
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0d

Postby tati cornet » 18 Feb 2010, 15:57

of course it's interesting to have different games, but personnally i have tried everything and my power is always the same. it's not only because they are baseliner, this playr style doesn't give you more power, just more acceeration.
so when zeka says it's not a mystery, maybe he can tell us how he does :|
about you serena, maybe you don't realise, but your power is clearly horrible to control on fast surfaces (remember even on clay when you were so close to beat me). i repeat what i said: kyuuji, ero, blacky, even m are hard hitter, but there is definitely a difference between us and zeka, serena, richou, kz...
i don't mean they are cheating or anything, i just say they found an unknown way to hit like this and it could be interesting to know which way :yes:
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0d

Postby S.Williamz » 18 Feb 2010, 17:14

I kinda get what tati cornet is talking about, there is this strange phenomenon in TE that I am 100% sure is real because it's so obvious, and it has been like this for months now. I've been trying to figure out what causes it but no luck yet. Against some players the game is considerably faster paced than against others. For example a game can be so fast that most points include only aces or serves followed by immidiate winners. Or a game can be so slow that there are almost no aces at all or much longer points. The weird thing is that this difference can happen on the same court with players having almost exact same stats. And no spin is involved. Also a match on clay can be far faster against someone than a match on grass for example. Again stats and skill levels of players are equal. What also is strange is that it can change, against one player I had quite slow matches in the past, no aces and very long points even on the fastest surfaces, now in the most recent match we had ton of aces and winners with points lasting very few strikes. Both of us were playing the same game than before. :?
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Re: Tennis Elbow 2009 1.0d

Postby Jelena Jankovic » 18 Feb 2010, 21:25

Hahaha, but Simon I don't use them so often like you... xD

I think that for the good power shots you just need good movement, nothing else... :sweat:
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Re: Game Balance Problems with Top Spin, Drop, Lob, etc...

Postby S.Williamz » 22 Feb 2010, 00:57

Regarding the issue I wrote about in my previous post, I am recording a lot of matches so I'll be posting some of them here to show what I'm talking about.

Here's how the game plays against some players. I call it super fast. There are a lot of aces no matter who you are playing and in general returning is very hard. Most points end really quickly because as soon as you're in control it's easy to dominate.

2010-02-20.14-18 - A.Iva vs S.Wil 4-6.dmo


Here's how it plays against some other players. Even on grass there are hardly any aces and returning in general is very easy. Points are much longer and normal and topspin strikes are used more frequently because it seems acceleration isn't nearly as effective as in "super fast" games. Points can potentially go on forever if both players don't do silly mistakes.

2010-02-21.00-31 - P.1 vs S.Wil 1-6.dmo


I think the game can play in other ways too, for example sometimes I can have an advantage of some kind or my opponent has, but I'll leave it out for now.

This thing has long confused me. It happens all the time against a lot of players and definitely has nothing to do with skill level or stats, I've tried out everything pretty much. There's simply no explanation why matches can play so differently.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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