Mana Games

[CC]

Excuse me while I step up to my soapbox ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soapbox )....
~~~

Prior to the last couple of updates, it was possible for a diagonal slice shot to be pretty low, with little arc, and for the ball to catch sometimes the net cord. Sometimes, the ball would hit the net lower than the cord, sometimes it could clip the cord and fall over, and other times it would just clear the cord. I think that this was pretty realistic, as certainly this type of shot is possible in real tennis.

Now, regardless or how in the red I or in the green I am when hitting the ball with the slice shot in a diagonal direction, the ball seems to arc over the net like a car going over a hill. It is like there is an imaginary road the ball is going down with a hump stationed on top of the net. I don't like this, and I don't think that it is realistic.

I play tennis on Saturdays with a gentleman who has a nasty habit of slicing almost every strike, such that even when we are just, I thought, going to hit the ball around and not play for points, his returns are short, the ball curves a lot, and after the bounce the ball moves unpredictably in any number of directions. I was pretty frustrated with him this weekend as I tired of having to run toward the net every time he would hit the ball , only to get there too late to return it, while I was just basically hitting the ball back to him so that we could hit it around a bit. Anyway, my point is that sometimes when he used this shot , the ball cleared the net and did what he wanted . In fact, this last time he seemed to have this magic touch as he almost always got it right , and he seemed pretty pleased with his ability (and I expect he enjoyed seeing me running everywhere and finding myself too close to the ball when it rose and curved toward me ). Not that I am upset about this or anything However, there were some times, especially when I in frustration subtly put something extra on my returns , that his evil shot would not clear the net. This is the way that it was in TE2009 prior to this change, and I liked it better that way. Just like I can't take away this wicked slice shot that I hate so much from the guy that I play with on Saturdays, I don't think that it should be taken out of TE2009 just because maybe it is hard to return. Many releases ago, this shot was easier to hit, and then there was an update where it was a little more difficult but still possible (but the player had to be in the right position, with the right preparation, returning a certain range of shots from his opponent, and applying the right direction, etc.). Now, it seems impossible to hit anything even close to this, and the little hump over the net is very artificial.

[manutoo]

hum, are u talking about the slice that I didn't change since long time or the drop shot that I change a couple of weeks ago ?

[CC]

Hi. I'm talking about the drop shot, I guess. The confusing thing is that I always prepared for it with a slice, and then I hit the drop shot at the last moment. Anyway, I do believe that it is the drop shot that you said that you tuned (rather eliminated). We talked about it here:
http://www.managames.com/Forum/topic15-2077.php

Now that I think of it, this applies to the slice as well. Now when I hit a slice shot, it seems to have little chance of going with very little arc when it gets near to the net. Instead, it lifts up artificially and clears the net, and it seems that sometimes it should be possible to have it be more level or with much less of a lift over the net -- even to hit below the net cord or to just clip it. So, I am talking about both the slice and the drop shot.

All of the drop shots (from not right in front of the net) now seem to magically "hump" over the net, and I don't like this. There just seems to be too much lift. I still enjoy the game, but not as much as before.

[btaylor]

Hi CC,

A properly executed drop shot SHOULD clear or "hump" over the net by 4 to 6 feet assuming one is applying it from "just in front" of one's own baseline...rather, the farther you are inside the court when you hit the dropper, the less net clearance you should need...

Regarding the "slice"; in real tennis a well hit slice from just behind, on, or just inside the baseline off of a ball AT or BELOW waist height SHOULD be a lifting motion, i.e. a slight "rainbow arc" to clear the net...
The exception would be if you were "inside the service line" and are able to aggressively hit "down" on the slice off of a ball ABOVE net height, which will give you a more or less "straight or slightly inverted rainbow arc" that produces a skidding bounce that stays low...

In general there are 4 basic slices:
1.) a high "floating" slice that lands deep in your opponent's court to "buy time" and allow you to recover when on the defensive...
2.) a "flatter" slice that helps to change the pace during a groundstroke rally...
3.) a "chip" return off of a serve that lands at the feet of an incoming serve & volleyer/netrusher...
4.) an aggressive "biting" slice approach shot that skids and stays low, which I alluded to above...


Listen, the more experienced you become in real tennis, the better you'll be able to anticipate the moves of this devilish Saturday "spin-meister" and have an effective counter for him...this type of "hacker" only gets pleasure from your inexperience and aggravation by employing these slicey-dicey shots.
I wager that once you figure him out and turn the tables on him that he won't even want to hit with you any more...

Actually, I wrote this post before even trying build #33, but after trying it I really don't find much difference from build #31, at least not against the CPU...I guess from what I'm reading in the posts this new build must be pure hell for the online players...

What I DO notice though, is I'm having the same issues with the fps rate that I had with every version since build #29...but oh well...

I always have to totally exit the game back to my desktop screen and re-launch after each set/match to get the correct fps rate...I guess I'm not gonna have any other choice, so I'll just have to live with it...

[CC]

btaylor:

Thanks for the tips. That is good information. That's not really the issue that I am talking about, but it is good to know.

What I am seeing is that the game seems to give to much help to make the ball clear the net when using the slice. I can be in a horrible position, use the slice, and the ball still gracefully goes over the net. Before, there were more errors, and the ball may go with less of an arc. It is just not the same now, and I don't think that it is as realistic as before. To me it seems that things were adjusted to eliminate the possibility of the drop shot /slice shot that clips the net cord and rolls over; sure, maybe that shot is not possible now, but it should be possible as this kind of thing happens sometimes. If it ~can't~ happen, then the game is not realistic.

[btaylor]

Hey CC,

Sorry if I got off track..I was just trying to "pump you up" to deal with your Saturday opponent...
My post was originally meant to address your problems with the slice shots in the "new" TE...

So... you would rather have more slices "clip" the net and then drop OVER? For winners...or just to present problems for your opponents online or with the CPU, in terms of having to "adjust" to the netcord?

For some time now (dating back to the beginning of TE09) for the most part, I only seem to clip the net for winners when I'm hitting an angled volley...

It seems to me when I'm in crosscourt rallies with the CPU that when we get into these crazy, accelerated, sharply angled exchanges where the CPU keeps cutting the angle sharper and sharper that if HE doesn't clip the net, then I sure don't wanna be the one to do it first, particularly if it causes ME to lose the point...realistic or not...

On the other hand, I guess it COULD add maybe a touch more realism to the game (even though I don't think it RUINS the game not to have it...)
I guess I never gave much thought to it one way or the other...

[CC]

btaylor:

That's not really what I am saying, either. It's not that I want more of less of those shots you described that clip the net and roll over. It is that I want those shots to be possible. For example, I don't yet have the skill to hit the slice shots that the guy I play with on Saturdays can hit. However, he does have that skill, and he can hit it fairly often. Right now, it is effective against me. In TE2009, even the CPU player hit that shot that clips the net and rolls over before these updates. Now, it seems like the possibility of these shots has been eliminated, and that is the issue that I have. It is like the physics of the shots have been doctored with so that what otherwise would / should have been possible depending on all of the variables (position of the player, speed of the incoming ball, timing of the returners strike, angle of the return, etc., etc.) have been trumped by something such that the return is based on more of something that says, hump over the net, rather than says, let the return of the ball be consistent with these realistic physics and variables.
I should be able to hit that type of shot and others, but I can't do it because the game won't allow it. I've tried to hit errors or make the slice shot not go over the net, and it so far hasn't happened. If someone were to zap the guy I play with on Saturdays such that when he goes to hit this slice shot something takes control of his arm and changes his motion, he would not like it, and I wouldn't like it either, as it would take away the fun and change the dynamics of the game.

[btaylor]

CC,

Are you saying that more "mistakes" or "imprecise" strikes need to be made off of the slice at the higher levels, such as pro or master, etc...that it's too "perfect" (unrealistic) as it is now?

[CC]

btaylor:

I really don't know what level I am at or what level the CPU is at when I play offline. So, I am not sure how to answer your question. I don't think that I would qualify it like that -- nothing to do with any level. It is much simpler than that. There is now this "magic" slice shot that almost always clears the net, despite how poorly the player may be positioned or all of the other things that should determine the return of the ball. There shouldn't be some magic force lifting the ball over the net as it is now.

[manutoo]

CC, AFAIR, I didn't change the slice since long time. I only changed the drop shop.
The slice should still catches the net on some extreme shots, but only the drop shot was catching the net on a regular basis in the past.

[CC]

ManuTOO:

Maybe just then consider changing this title to "Recent adjustment to drop shot (with slice effect)?" Anyway, whether it be drop shot or slice shot, the possibility of errors and the arc of the return, to me, is not right. Before, as you say with drop shot, the ball would hit the net some. Now, this doesn't happen, even if I am in a bad position. So, my point is that maybe in Arcade mode this would be OK. But in simulation mode, I don't think that these shots should be aided so that they always clear the net and also so that they clear it so much.

I liked it the way that it was, and I think that it was more realistic then. To me, it is interesting when I am watching a tennis match and someone hits a ball and it clips the net; it catches the other player off-guard, and they have to run to get it or whatever. That adds excitement to the game. Now, that element has been removed, and I don't enjoy the game as much now. Like I said before, in the past I couldn't clip the net whenever I wanted to (well, at first maybe I could pretty much, but not after one of the updates that made that a little more difficult). If I wanted to try to get that low, angled shot to either clip the net or just pass over it, I could at least try it and have some chance of making it; if I failed, then I hit an error, and that was fine. I hit a risky shot, so I paid the price if I missed. Also, sometimes this shot was hit purely "by accident," as the returner was just in such a position and angle to the court and incoming ball that the net got in the way or whatever (the CPU player hit this shot many times). That doesn't happen now. So, if realistic physics of tennis indicates that the ball should clip the net, then please let it clip the net rather than putting some artificial restriction on this that makes what should have happened not happen (such that the ball, instead of hitting below the net cord or clipping it instead is aided over the net).

I thought that so many of the shots in this game were based on realistic physics such as court type, top spin effect, player position, player speed, power, angle, etc.. I assumed that there was some formula for determining the trajectory of the ball to which as input all of these variables and that this formula would then calculate the trajectory of the return such that it hopefully was realistic. Now, it is like that formula is being superseded by a law against certain shots.

[manutoo]

CC, I changed the drop shot coz it was totally unrealistic.
In RL, if u catch the net 3 times in a match & win the point over it, u'll be already quite lucky. In the online match I did before to change the drop shot, my opponent caught the net 3 times in 2 games..! And in the worst position possible : several meters after the baseline, completely off-center & out of time.

In RL, the drop shot is a shot that is struck to the top ; before in TE, it could be struck straightforward, or even kinda to the bottom, when the ball was high, and this can't be done in real, coz it'd have absolutely no control. It is what I have changed, so now, the drop shot has to be curved...

For the slice, once again, I didn't change it. I do a lot of slices during my online matches, and it always works as expected...

Maybe now u don't miss it too much coz of the antilag that gives u the correct preparation time.

[Brecht]

CC, I've got something for you.
I'm rather a beginner (a passionate one) at the game, and like you I loved the cross-court drop-shot that was so flat and used to hit the net and drop like dead a few centimeters after ... because it helped me in difficult situations . But today, with build 33 then, I hit one beautiful cross-court drop-shot that happened to be a passing-shot-winner (wow!!) ... Hope it will make you like the new version .

TE2009_005.jpg (30.99 KiB) Viewed 1443 times

TE2009_010.jpg (31.23 KiB) Viewed 1443 times

TE2009_017.jpg (28.14 KiB) Viewed 1443 times

[CC]

Brecht:

It's great to know that someone supports me. I've been so frustrated over this that it has been a while since I have been on the forum. Well, that's not completely true, but I do miss that shot.

Thank you so much for posting those pictures. That is encouraging. I have also found some situations (certain undisclosed positions and undisclosed shots) where the ball will catch the net. I'm going to keep those to myself lest they be taken away, and the range of possible shots be limited such that shots that should be possible but on a limited basis are made to be completely impossible.