Competition or Pleasure

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Competition or Pleasure

Postby btaylor » 27 Mar 2009, 05:30

Leena,

I'm a little confused here..
Since I don't play online, maybe you can help me figure this out 8-)

When you're playing someone "online" don't each of you ( you & your opponent ) have the ability to edit your own player's characteristics? :scratch:

I mean, if your opponent plays with 100% topspin, but has weaker shots and can't hit a winner...isn't that a choice that HE made, unlike in the world tour where you just have to DEAL with whatever strengths that your opponent has, be it mucho topspin, serve volley, or whatever? Why would you want him to be able to play on "even ground"?

It would seem to me that by virtue of the fact that he CHOSE this style of play that he certainly doesn't have YOUR best interest at heart. He feels that it annoys YOU... SO WHAT if he struggles to hit winners and is handicapped by the style that HE chose in that regard? After all, "ain't you in it to win it"?

Why not, as they say, let him "live by the sword, die by the sword?" :wink:

From what I read in the posts, Tog is VERY adept at topspin and since he's one of the 2 best players, apparently HE doesn't struggle with it, so I'm not talking about HIM... :wink:

p.s. Can't you edit the CPU's topspin levels in the player "character sheet" if it's too high?
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Re: ITF Court Pace Ratings

Postby Leena » 27 Mar 2009, 07:12

I'm a stickler for fair play.

If someone isn't a regular player, they might not be aware that high topspin isn't the best setup for them. Of course, they can learn and change over time, but the point is that the choice for topspin is there and it doesn't really have any positives to make up the negatives it gives.

Also, not everyone is "in it to win it". I prefer playing a fair, realistic as possible match, win or lose, and many are like that. Probably not on this board though since most are in the super competitive league.

From what I read in the posts, Tog is VERY adept at topspin and since he's one of the 2 best players, apparently HE doesn't struggle with it, so I'm not talking about HIM...

Togt was one of the first, and the best, with a defensive style and 100% topspin caused complaints and forced changes in the online game...

Not to be rude, but the difference between online and offline play is enormous in this game. Unless you play online, there's not much you can say about it.

p.s. Can't you edit the CPU's topspin levels in the player "character sheet" if it's too high?

Yeah, but there's thousands of players, and you'd have to change them for every season...
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Re: ITF Court Pace Ratings

Postby btaylor » 27 Mar 2009, 07:56

Leena,
A quick story...
Many years ago I played in a double elimination tourney and lost to a very good player whom I frequently practiced with..
He had also "whitewashed" a relative beginner in his previous match...
As luck would have it, I had to play this same player in my next match...
Knowing that he had been thoroughly embarassed in his 1st match I knew that I'd beat him, but didn't want to totally "throttle" him, so I didn't use my "A" game, let him win a couple of games without being obvious and I won the 1st set 6/3...
During the changeover I mentioned to him that it had been a tough 1st set, trying to be nice...to which he informed me rather digustedly that he had had CHANCES and should have WON the set!! :shock:
After those comments I then proceeded to show him just how many "chances" he would have in the 2nd set and put him out of his misery 6/0... 8-)
My point is this...this was a tournament and by not merely "taking care of business" in the 1st set, I gave this guy "hope" which I had to extinguish in the 2nd set...
"Hope" and "momentum" are strange bedfellows...losing "momentum" by giving "hope" can often be disastrous...
This was an extremely "fairly played" match, but I use it to prove the point that when "competing" in a game, be it tennis or whatever, the general idea should be to compete as "fairly" as possible, with the ultimate goal of "winning"...
Imo a tennis "match" is just that..a "competition" that you're in to "win"...if winning isn't the object of the competiton, why not simply "rally" back and forth without "points?"
Incidently, your point about my not playing online is well taken and will be addressed in the near future.. :wink:
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Re: ITF Court Pace Ratings

Postby Leena » 27 Mar 2009, 15:52

Imo a tennis "match" is just that..a "competition" that you're in to "win"...if winning isn't the object of the competiton, why not simply "rally" back and forth without "points?"

Because online gaming is different. Everyone can cheese if they want to.

I know I'd be more effective serving from the doubles alley and kicking serves far out of view. Or, constantly hitting lob returns against someone not prepared for it. Or, mastering that drop shot that dribbles over the net.

At some point, you just want to play a tennis game, and not find loopholes to boost your ELO and E-ego.
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Re: Competition or Pleasure

Postby btaylor » 28 Mar 2009, 00:07

I started a new topic on this because I feel this discussion deviates too far away from the topic "ITF Court Pace Ratings" and may prove interesting to maybe get others point of view on this as well... :roll:

My view on competition is this:

While I LOVE tennis at least as much and maye even MORE than the next guy, I can certainly relate to "fairness" and competing with a good "spirit"...

But, in ANY "competiton" in which a "score" is kept, what is the ultimate goal?

In any "sport", be it cards, darts, team or individual sports or whatever, isn't the idea of pitting your skills against those of your opponent with the goal of either having more points as the clock winds down, crossing the line 1st, or winning the match, isn't that what it's about on the most "basic" level?

Hey, in real tennis I LOVE to hit the ball back and forth while simply rallying or drilling equally as much as playing matches...
When we're just "hittin' some balls" I'm really not about "pissing" my opponent off by hitting a million drop shots, lobs, winners or moonballs...
At the same time, unless we're working on our consistency, when one of us gets a short ball to "attack" or an open court to hit into we usually try to "win" the point...

Conversely I, like many others, absolutely ABHOR those assholes who simply want to crush "winners" on every shot...especially when we're just rallying...OR the dreaded "dinkers" and "moonballers"

However, once we start a match or set, if he wants to use that style, so be it...if HIS game trumps MY game then good for him...
If his game trips him up with too many errors for him and too many set-ups for me, then good for me...I might not ENJOY playing this particular match, but c"est la vie...

My point, (and I suppose I'm too caught up in semantics here) is that while it's nice to play a match for "pleasure" or the "fun" of it, if you're actually "keeping score" then someone wins, someone loses...

If I'm challenged in a "pick-up" set at the local park against a perceived lower level opponent, I'll try not to "show off" and make him look bad, all the while keeping a watchful eye on the game/set score... 8-)

If he/she is struggling and IF they're open to a little constructive criticism, I'll even volunteer some "tips" during the set...so it'll be a learning experience for them...

If we're at similar levels, I know I'm in for a "dogfight" but at the same time enjoying the battle (as long as it's in the spirit of "fair" play)

If I'm playing someone who is better than me and I lose, then it'll be a learning experience for me...

Boris Becker was once upset in the 2nd round at Wimbledon by little known Peter Doohan (or was it Brie Whitehead :wink:) and when asked his feelings about the match he responded, "I didn't lose a war, nobody died, it was a tennis match!"

While I don't necessarily advocate the "win at all costs" mentality in TE that Leena and others have alluded to, the basic "object" of ANY competition at ANY level is to "win", that why it's called a "competition"...
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Competition or Pleasure

Postby btaylor » 28 Mar 2009, 00:16

Manu,
I'm sorry...I should've started the above post under "new topic" :oops:
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Re: Competition or Pleasure

Postby manutoo » 28 Mar 2009, 05:40

I put everything in a new topic... ;)

And playing amiable online matches is not a competition ; it is only when playing the online tournament matches... :yes:
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Re: Competition or Pleasure

Postby Guest » 28 Mar 2009, 08:00

I can't agree more with what btaylor and Leena have already contributed to the topic of fairness of play. This is the reason why I'm being a bit more selective with my opponents these days. I've had a few encounters with immature, ungracious losers who accused me of cheating and claiming to "know" who I am, when my playing style is perhaps not that unique, given the number of TE players out there.

I played someone the other day who commented on how the preview would effectively eliminate, or at least offset the need to keep your eye on the ball, which we all know is essential in real life tennis. So at his request I disabled all previews and guess what happened? I had trouble chasing down short balls and drop shots, not to mention those >200kph serves. I was addicted to the preview and comfortably hitting groundstrokes from anywhere on the court. In my final analysis I found that the preview gets you in position faster and easier, which in theory is responsible for those incredibly long rallies and crazily angled passes, especially when you have high topspin. Someone who has poor anticipation can easily rely on the preview to produce highly consistent and impeccable tennis. Oh and of course, those aggressive lobs upon return of service, which can be irritating if you're error-prone. For this reason, I suggest that while previews can be helpful and fun for practice and recreational games, its use should not be encouraged in competitive events, at least not in the masters series and grand slams. This should provide a more authentic representation of the true abilities of players.
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Re: Competition or Pleasure

Postby S.Williamz » 28 Mar 2009, 10:09

99,99% of the players I have played during TE 2006 and 2009 have used the serve+rally preview...if everyone uses it, no one has an advantage, right? I guess it would be interesting to try playing without it, I have tried a few times, and especially returning fast serves is harder...but I think most people use the preview because the game is more fun with it. Also I don't think it's necessarily less realistic with the preview, because in real life it's easier to see where the ball lands, but in this game, sometimes without the preview, for example your opponent hits a short shot, and you can't tell if it's going to be a short shot or a long shot until it has bounced. That makes the gameplay very strange lol. So in a way, I think the preview makes the anticipation of balls more realistic.
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Re: Competition or Pleasure

Postby manutoo » 28 Mar 2009, 12:23

The serve+rally preview is the default setting, so it's normal to see most players with it.

I concur with S.Williamz that it's harder than in real to predict the ball trajectory ; the reason is simple : in the game, we have a flat view, where in real life with have a stereoscopic view (from our 2 eyes ;) ) that can gives us more or less instant distance information.

Still, personally, I play only with the service preview, coz with a bit of training, the rally preview isn't a too big advantage and it feels more realistic to focus on the ball without help. But for the service, especially online with the lag, I almost cannot return without the service preview help... :sweat:
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Re: Competition or Pleasure

Postby btaylor » 29 Mar 2009, 04:41

I don't know how I would do without the preview thing when playing online, since I haven't done that yet, but when I'm playing against the CPU and on the World Tour I haven't used the preview...

I guess I don't want to get too dependent on it...so I suppose I'm sort of "training" myself to play without it. :wink:

So far, I don't have too much of a problem anticipating where most balls will land, however, sometimes it's tough on the drop shots that the CPU hits...

The thing is, though, that the CPU only seems to hit the dropper if you are way far behind the baseline (which IS a good time to hit it) so I try not to stay back there TOO long...

The problem that I seem to have with the CPU's dropshots is that most times I can SEE it coming, but STILL my player seems to move in "slow motion" to get to them...

Still, I've gotten a BIT better at getting to them, so perhaps it's just ME doing something wrong, as Manu SWEARS that he fixed the problem some time back in an earlier build :roll:

I suppose the difference online is that the opponent may choose to hit it indiscriminantly whenever...as a surprise tactic OR, as I've read in the posts, SOME players seem to use it for serve returns or for almost every shot, which I imagine CAN get a bit annoying :?
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Re: Competition or Pleasure

Postby swissmade » 29 Mar 2009, 14:41

I removed all the previews after ten minutes from the first approach to the game. I think i had more problems in the first matches but i learned to play really fast. Previews imho are a big arcade option, all speechs about advantages come later. My thought is always the same: simulation, simulation and simulation :)
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Re: Competition or Pleasure

Postby Leena » 30 Mar 2009, 09:44

In World Tour, I used to not use any previews, but now I use the serve preview, for practice online.

For online, I use serve+rally. I avoid free mode, so the shot placement one isn't a factor anyway.

I dislike all the previews... especially the serve one, because I don't even look at the ball anymore. And I think the rally one pops up too quick, because my eyes move to that first. But, I guess they're necessary to keep the gameplay quick, so meh.
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